Unleashed dogs vs guns for protection

[TamThompson]

An increasing trend here in Austin is for women who are out hiking on trails alone to have several large, unleashed dogs accompanying them. This is despite signage posted at the trailheads that forbid unleashed animals.

Why does this bother me? Because I run, hike, and mountain bike on those trails and I really hate being charged, snarled at, and chased by dogs, or having to stop and tip-toe around them.

I've tried to talk with these women and point out that they should leash their dogs, but every single one of them blows me off. I've called the Austin Park Police, and they said they have a zero tolerance policy on this--if they see it, they'll write a ticket. But the women keep on doing it.

The women doing this are always upscale-looking women in nice SUV's or sometimes cars.

I have a sneaking suspicion that large, unleashed dogs are liberal womens' form of protection when they're alone on trails. They probably think it's DANGEROUS to carry guns.

Now, I realize I'm preaching to the choir, but who's more likely to cause injury or death to strangers: a woman with large unleashed dogs, or me with my concealed handgun???

They can't predict what those dogs will do to a stranger or a child--the dogs might go off on someone and then there's no calling them back. Me, now, I can 100% predict what my gun will and won't do. It won't go off on anyone until I draw it, put my finger on the trigger, and pull.

OK, I feel better for having ranted. I just wish more of my fellow females would go with the gun option instead of menacing me with loose dogs. I don't want to have to shoot a dog, and I hate having to even pepper spray 'em.

 

[TheeBadOne]

Two Initials

OC

 

[444]

Tam, you and I have been round and round in the past on the dog issue. But, I agree with you completely. No one, should have a dog (any dog) off leash in a public place.
If you want to walk your dog off leash, get in that SUV and drive out to the boonies somewhere and do it; IF there are no other people there.

"They can't predict what those dogs will do to a stranger or a child..."
I can predict what my dog will do, and it wouldn't be pretty. That is why he is on a leash.
For what it's worth, a large dog is a great deterrent. I used to live in a semi-bad part of town and would often walk my dog late at night to avoid the heat. I often saw people that I would label as gang bangers walking down the street or standing in a yard or parking lot. When I came along with my dog on a leash, heeling perfectly, they would immediately get out of the area. They would cross the street to the other side or anything to not have contact with my dog. My dog wouldn't have done anything to them unless I told him to, but they didn't know that.
Oh, and I also had a gun.

 

[CGofMP]

TBO got it right....

NO! Bad DOG!

(Check your local laws and product safety information.. bla bla bla...)

 

[Maimaktes]

Tam, big, loose dogs are a special pet peeve of mine. I've lost count of the times they've made as if to attack me, only to be deterred by my brandished walking stick. And I've lost count of the number of loose dogs' *owners* who threatened to do this or that to me if I "touched that dog with that stick." I remember one apparent college girl whose pit bull came running at me. When I came on guard with my stick, and the dog backed off, she cursed at me and said something about "If you DARE raise a stick to my dog ... ."

And I've lost count of the times I've had multiple car loads of nervous, trigger-twitchy cops confront me as I was out walking, later claiming they'd received an anonymous "suspicious person" call (probably from some of the pit bull and rottweiller owners). (BTW, in several of these cases I was *legally* carrying a gun concealed, but I never displayed it or said anything about it, and everybody focused on the stick like it was a neutron bomb.)

But the sad fact is there are a whole lot more people who like dogs than people who like guns or gun owners. To let it be known you are not especially a dog-lover makes you a heartless monster in many people's eyes. Ditto if you let on that you don't want anything to do with any kids.

Maimaktes

 

[Maimaktes]

444, I'm not any sort of gangbanger, and I too would cross the street, or even reverse course if need be, to avoid someone approaching with a pit bull, rottweiller, doberman, et al., loose *or* leashed. Actually, around here most of the people you see out walking big, mean dogs appear to *be* gangbangers. The ones with them tied up out in the yard are mostly meth cookers, like my elderly parents' next-door neighbor, recently busted for same. (His pit bull's still out there, though, his leash attached by a sliding loop or ring to the clothesline. He barks nonstop, night and day, and snarls ferociously at anyone who gets near the fence. He used to get loose and jump the fence into my parents' back yard all the time, and we were all afraid he'd attack or even kill their little dachshund, who is a sort of surrogate grandchild to them.

Maimaktes

 

[444]

I am not a sensitive or PC guy, but realize that making sweeping assumptions about breeds of dogs is not much different than making sweeping generalizations about races of people. Dogs or people can be good or bad based on their upbringing and treatment.
I am sensitive about this because I happen to be a rottweiller owner. And, I love my dog like a child. Hundreds of people know my dog by name because I am always talking about him and took him everywhere I went for years. If you give him no problems, he will give you no problems. He won't go out of his way looking for trouble, but if trouble finds him, watch out. If you met him on the street he would lick your hand and beg you to pet him. If you come to visit me, or I come to visit you, he will kill you with affection.
But, if you want to come in my house when no one but him is at home, or you want to break in to my truck, Katie bar the door. Two people found out the hard way on each of those senarios. Or, if I give him the command..................
I spent hundreds of hours training him. I can, and have walked down the Las Vegas strip with him healing off leash and he never wavered (I had second thoughts about this afterwards and wouldnt' do it again).

 

[MeekandMild]

I recall an incident many years ago when a large loose dog tried to kill my puppy which was on a leash. I knocked the dog sensless with my walking stick, which is only just and fair. The owner was quite remorseful, as the dog had escaped and she hadn't deliberately let him go.

The way you handle people who won't listen about this issue is that if they are deliberately running this dog one tooth from their dog touches you or yours you take the dog and the SUV and whatever else you can get via lawsuit. My 2 cents.

 

[TamThompson]

I guess I forgot to mention I'm a dog lover, too. We have two black labs and two cats, and no kids. Because I love my dogs, they're not allowed out the front door without a leash on. (The cats aren't allowed outside at any time because I read the average life of an indoor cat is 15 years, but for an outdoor cat it's only 3 years--they get hit by cars.)

I love my dogs enough to be responsible with them--that's why I don't understand why others don't. I wish they'd think about the fact that they'll be sued for huge medical damages if their dogs maul me BEFORE it happens. I'm just funny, I guess--I like my body to remain intact.

I'm familiar with the gang-banger thing of having pet pit bulls, et cetera, but what I'm talking about is an upper-middle-class phenomenon. These women are driving very nice SUV's and cars and seem to think laws don't apply to them.

I don't like to carry a stick while running, since I'm clumsy enough I might fall wrong with it, but more and more these days I'm carrying one while walking. And, yes, I've noticed that dog owners fixate on that stick like it was a neutron bomb. Good.

A month ago, I was out hiking with no stick, but had OC on belt, Spyderco in waistband, and Keltec in pack. Saw two women with two large loose dogs were very casual about them--not particularly concerned with the dogs coming up to me and menacing me. Farther down the trail, when I turned around to head back, I picked up a large stick and carried it.

Encountered same two women and dogs again, and now it's a WHOLE different story. Dog collars are grabbed, dogs are pulled out of my way and off the trail as I go by. Sticks work. Sad, though, that these people HAVE to have their dogs threatened with a stick before they'll get responsible.

What galls me most, I suppose, is the extremely defensive reaction (noted earlier) that these women have when confronted, or even after their dogs charge me and I have to threaten them with OC or a stick.

An Austin Park Police officer explained to me that a whole lot of us Baby Boomers use dogs as substitute children, which explains why they don't think they have to follow rules, and explains the extreme defensive reaction someone else posted about. That irks me--dogs are dogs, and kids are kids, they ain't the same, and too many of both are spoiled. For me, the first words out of an irresponsible dog owner's mouth are ALWAYS: "He's friendly!"

As if...I'm expected to know that even though I've never seen that dog.
As if...that negates what just happened--the dog charged me.
As if...that makes everything all hunky-dory and smiley-faced.

Probably going to write a letter to the newspaper.

 

[JonnyB]

Mrs. B. and I have two dogs, and they're *always* on leash when we walk them. Our old (she's 7-8) one is a mix of English Setter and Lab, and the quietest, most mellow mutt you can have. Unless, that is, we meet someone with a loose dog. She's a very dominant, Alpha female (the dog, too), and *will* kill - or attempt to kill - any other dogs that approach in a less-than-submissive manner. She's about 80 pounds, and looks harmless, but is not.

We often meet these type of women to whom Tam refers, and they make all kinds of excuses about how their dogs are "just puppies" or that they're "friendly". Maybe, but after we meet them a couple times, they take great care to hustle their dogs out of our way when they see us on the path. *Their* dogs may be friendly, but to *our* dog, their behaviour can appear aggressive, and she responds with violence.

Funny thing is, when we meet other dogs that *are* on leash, she's quite friendly (or, at worst, indifferent) to them. She knows who represents a danger to 'mom' and who doesn't.

We, too, encourage these people to obey the city's leash law, but they won't. I'm nearly always carrying, but have, thus far, only raised a stick to the more aggressive beasts.

JB

 

[scotjute]

I can vouch for what Tam is saying. I've been to Austin and was hiking on a 2-mile trail. Must have passed about 12 large dogs loose on trail following sort-of their owners. Not a leash on any of them, clearly violating the no-leash law. Pit bulls, Shepherds, Retrievers, Mastiff, etc. The problem is worse in Austin than any-where else I've been.

 

[HankB]

I live in what some might call an "upscale" suburb just west of Austin and when I've been out for a walk after dark I've never encountered anyone with a loose, threatening dog. In fact, the folks around here seem to deliberately pull in the leash and grab the dog's collar just as a courtesy when someone else approaches. Maybe just a different class of folks than the upscale latter-day hippies who live right IN "Moscow on the Colorado."

Now, I like dogs, and only once in the last 10 years have I encountered a threatening dog - a loose Rottweiler/Heinz 57 mix - and that mutt came *very* close to being shot. The owner didn't see the G26 I was holding alongside my MagLite, but was still quite apologetic about his dog slipping the leash.

really hate being charged, snarled at, and chased by dogs,

Well, then don't put up with it. Get some of that "bear repellent" they sell in sporting goods stores (Since you're in Austin, try Academy, Oshman's and REI) and the next time it happens, give Fido a surprise.

loose dogs' *owners* who threatened to do this or that to me if I "touched that dog with that stick."

OC would work on them, too.

 

[MeekandMild]

What galls me most, I suppose, is the extremely defensive reaction (noted earlier) that these women have when confronted, or even after their dogs charge me and I have to threaten them with OC or a stick.

Bad idea to threaten. A stick is for walking support or defence but not threatening. Waving a stick at some dogs just makes them madder.

OTOH I will ask the owner if they have good insurance so they won't be sleeping in the rain if their dog attacks.

 

[Highland Ranger]

Carry a gun . . . .

you're lucky enough to live in a state where you can . . . . if the dogs get near you DRAW on them and politely ask the owner to call off their dog.

Might have to some explaining but I'd rather shoot a dog than be mauled by one.

(dog owner - large yellow lab puppy who is trying to drag me outside to play with him in 2 degree weather as I type this . . . )

 

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

IF IN DANGER OF ATTACK, DRAW

My family has a number of animals & fish. Large white German Shepherd (cool dog but hates seeing other dogs "off leash"), and couple of cats who are 'amused' by us humans.

I have personally been attacked without provocation for the terrible act of just minding my own business. Take it from me, it will NEVER happen again.

My advice: if an unleased dog threatens you, give the owner about three seconds to call the dog back. If that doesn't happen, draw your sidearm and issue a command to the dog AND the owner. Make it clear that you are drawing your defensive sidearm because the dog is NOT leashed and is threatening you with serious and immediate bodily harm.

Then...see who blinks.

 

[CasualShooter]

Generally speaking, I think a good stick is usually the best solution to the loose dog problem; better than either OC or a gun.

Many years ago, I found that while working the streets at night in the inner city area of a major city, loose dogs were a common encounter.

Though I was armed with a gun, I found that the display of a police baton was the most effective response when I was approached by multiple loose dogs running the neighborhoods. By simply extending my arm, with baton in hand, I found that those dogs had considerable respect for that stick and they stayed out of reach.

I new a police officer who was taking a dog bite report one evening. After getting the victum's story, the officer went to the Dog Owner's house and advised the Owner that the dog (a large german shephard) would have to be confined and observed for 10 days to ensure that it did not have rabbies.

The owner became enraged and 'sicked' the dog on the officer. Instead of drawing his batton, the officer drew his service revolver to shoot the dog. He then realized that he was standing on a concrete porch with children present and he feared a discharge might ricochet (spelling?) and harm one of the kids. So he swung at the dog with the gun and the dog bit his hand.

Thereafter, that officer reached for his stick when he thought he might have to deal with a dog.

Those of you confronted with this problem, who don't want the inconvenience of carrying a stick while jogging, might want to consider one of those collapsable batons which may be carried in a pocket and can be extended by a flick of the wrist.

As for pit bulls, I had one that lived 18 years. My children grew up with that dog and my youngest boy used to wrestle with it. I have had several different dogs of differing breeds since I was a kid myself. That pit bull was the most gentle dog I ever owned. It's all in how they're treated.

 

[Ky Larry]

I can't tell anyone what their reaction to a real or perceived dog attack should be. However, I'd like to offer a bit of advise. If you are attacked by a dog from your front and are forced to use your gun, drop to your knees before firing. This will ensure you don't over shoot. I was told this many years ago by a very experienced dangerous game hunter and used it to shoot a vicious pit bull. YMMV. I hope you never have to find out if this works.

 

[clubsoda22]

I spent hundreds of hours training him.

444, i envy you. I love dogs like yours. I've never owned a dog though, and am not sure how i would go about training one, so, sadly, i'll probably never end up owning one unless i end up with an animal lover.

My uncle trains his dogs like you, and i love them. his dogs are so well trained that you can throw the tennis ball into the street and they'll just stop at the curb and look at it. They follow commands perfectly. His now deceased shepard would actually wait for a command to attack if my uncle was attacked, but instantly jump to defence it my aunt was. It developed this on its own.

 

[Art Eatman]

I found that a fluorescent-green plastic water pistol with formaldehyde was quite effective against Ferocious Fangs. People, too, for that matter.

, Art

 

[Drjones]

This thread reminded me of this comic I saw in this past Sunday's paper.

 

[444]

Hclubsoda22
This is kind of off topic, but it is a labor of love. I don't have children but probably spent far less time training my dog than a parent gives a child. Dogs are very intelligent and the failures I typically encounter are usually to me, obviously the fault of the dog owner and not the dog. If you take just a little time to work with the dog, he is easily intelligent enough to do what you want. If you chain him up in the backyard, that won't teach him a thing. Housebreaking for example. I didn't even try to train my dog to go outside. For about two days I took him out every couple hours. By the third day I noticed that he was standing in front of the door obviously waiting to get out.
There are lots of great books on dog training available for you to read. I read several of them before ever buying a dog of my own. I took my dog to a basic obiedience class although he could already do everything in the class before day one because I spent maybe a half hour a day since I got him. Once he got a little older I took him to the local Schutzhund club. My dog never got a shutzhund title, but I got a lot of good training advice there. I also had an advantage that not many other people have in that I took my dog to work with me for almost a year. For over six months my dog never left my side for more than five minutes.
Here is a link describing what shutzhund is: http://www.germanshepherddog.com/schutzhund.htm

The story about the ball going in the street is similar to my dog. I have a 2 1/2 acre lot with no fence. He will go to the property line and stop right at the invisible line even if he is chasing something or warning someone not to enter. Teaching him this was very simple. I walked him around the perimeter of my property and corrected him whenever he attempted to leave the property. Within a day or two he learned.
I am by no means a dog guru or professional trainer. But my experience is that you don't have to be to have a very well behaved dog that does what you want.

 

[Maimaktes]

CasualShooter, that -- the general efficacy of a stick as a dog-deterrant -- has been my experience as well. I carry pepper spray too, but in something like a hundred such encounters I have only had to pepper spray one dog, and only had to actually strike or jab two or three with my stick. One time, when a big, known-to-be-mean rottweiller-mastiff-chow-mix dog, who'd slipped his chain, came toward me, crouching in a manner strangely more feline than canine, obviously about to spring, I thought of drawing my piece. (I didn't have a stick that day.) But at the last minute I *faked*, or "pantomimed," picking up a non-existant rock and made as if to throw it, and he backed off. It suited me. I didn't really want to shoot him if I could get out of it.

Maimaktes

 

[HankB]

I found that a fluorescent-green plastic water pistol with formaldehyde was quite effective against Ferocious Fangs. People, too, for that matter.

Art, when I was a kid in school there were some nasty dogs along the route I'd have to walk. Since water pistols tended to leak, I used to carry a squeeze bottle filled with a mixture of concentrated ammonia (the kind they used the fumes of to develop diazo blueprints) and powdered cayenne.

It worked on dogs up to Great Dane dimensions.

 

[Art Eatman]

Yeah, HankB, I also used squeeze bottles as a kid in Austintatious. There was some sort of underarm sweetsmellum that came in a green plastic container. Mennen? Anyhow one size was just right to fit in a shirt pocket. Carbon Tet also worked well.

I like dogs, but shame on those with bad manners. Got the same attitude about dog-owners, too. My health is of higher priority to me than is theirs.

, Art

 

[Leatherneck]

Hank, Art:
Can you imagine the reaction of the school today if a young'un took a squirt bottle of caustic stuff to school? He'd have to finish a GED in prison!

TC
TFL Survivor