DAO Accuracy - Or, why can't I hit the broadside of a barn?

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Dorrin79

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Picked up a Kel-Tec P11 at the SAXET gun show last weekend. It has the grip extension on it, and fits my hand comfortably.

Took it out shooting and found, much to my dismay, that I can't hit anything with it!

I am not a great shot by any means, but with my Ruger P89 I can do 2-3 inch groups at 10 yards, and hit plastic bottles/ coke cans regularly at 15-20 paces.

Any advice from all of you experts on how to shoot this gun more accurately? I'd like to use it for a CCW piece, but I have got to be able to shoot it better that this first.
 
Dorrin,

I don't think it is as much a DAO problem as a Kel Tec problem. It has a ridiculously long,hard trigger pull. You could try a "fluff and buff"(see KTOG.org) to help with it a little. The only real cure for that is gonna be practice.
 
I'll bet you're better than you think. Take it out into the country this weekend, and go "barn storming." Unload a mag at every barn you pass. I'll bet you find that you can too hit the broadside of a barn. :neener:

Seriously? I have a P32 and will get a P11 soon. With the P32, I've found that you have to practice in order to figure out about where the trigger breaks. For accurate shots, I aim, go ahead and take up most of the trigger creep, THEN aim more carefully, and then make a normal shot. Of course, with defensive shots (under 2-3 yards), I wouldn't be so worried about a 2 inch group.
 
KT Accuracy

KT's are pure self defense guns meant for close range work with acceptable accuracy. They are not bullseye guns for ranges beyond 8-10 yards. Any gun with a 3" barrel and only slightly longer sight radius will have accuracy limitations, and when you add the safe DAO trigger to the equation, some shooters do find the gun hard to shoot accurately initially.

KT's are sufficiently accurate for self defense. Despite the short barrel and relatively long trigger pull--which is not much different than most double action pulls on revolvers--when shot from a good rest at about seven yards, with a good sight picture and proper trigger control, all of them I have shot (about a dozen) group within two inches and very close to point of aim.

Do not shoot the heavier weight bullets like 147 grn in a lightweight pistol. Shoot 115's to break it in and for practice, and maybe 124's for carry. Grease the slide rails and slide/hammer interface (not oil which gets slung off).

Try dry firing with no ammo in the same room as the gun. You will find that you are squeezing your whole hand, not just pulling the trigger, and jerking the gun off target. Try doing this without the gun in your hand to see what I mean. Put a coin on top of the gun and pull the trigger. The gun will jump and the coin will fall off.

The overtravel of the trigger after it releases may be causing additional torque in your hand, which pulls the gun off target. That is why many who own these guns install a trigger "stop" behind the trigger. This will improve accuracy.

Widening the trigger with the trigger shoe accessory from KT also improves your control of the trigger. Do not anticipate recoil by jerking the gun downward. Use a firm grip.

Remembering that the sight radius is short requires that you concentrate on getting a good sight picture and holding it steady. Being a self defense gun, the front sight *covers* the intended point of impact rather than being under it as in a target sight picture.

The trigger pull can be lightened from its very acceptable 8.5 lbs to about 7 lbs fairly easily, and the length of pull can be shortened a little also, if you want to go that far for accuracy. I have done so with great results. Search the web sights below for further information.

However, people who complain about KT triggers have usually not spent a lot of time shooting DA revolvers or even the DA/SA pistols now on the market. The DA pulls on most of these guns are much worse than a that of a P-11.

The gun is designed for concealed carry, so it is small, light, yet powerful and with high capacity. There are always trade offs and compromises. Not having a safety requires a long trigger pull from the factory, but it makes it simpler and easier--and quicker to shoot in an emergency (no fumbling with a safety).

The Kel-Tec P-11 is not for everyone. If you are committed to concealed carry all the time everyday, it is a great gun and you can shoot it accurately. I recently shot an IDPA competition with my P-11 and scored fewer "points down" (penalties for innaccuracy) than all but four other shooters out of 36. The ones who beat me were shooting larger guns with single action triggers.

In summary:

Shoot from a rest at reasonable ranges to establish the accuracy of the gun, not the shooter.

Practice trigger control with dry firing.

Shoot at reasonable ranges, including point shooting at 3-5 feet to see how the gun would handle a real-life emergency.

Add some accessories and/or modifications to really tune it up.

CB3

http://www.ktog.org/tecwerks.htm
http://www.ktog.org/vbulletin/ (Do some searches on your questions)
http://www.kel-tec.com/prod01.htm (order accessories)
 
Look at grip and shoot it a lot

Try removing the grip extension and use a grip with two fingers around the grip and your pinky curled under the mag floorplate. I saw Ayoob suggest this for the Glock 26 and it works great for me and I have very large hands. I like the smaller profile for carry without the hi cap mags or pinky extension.

Also, don't give up until you have shot 500 rounds or so with the sucker....practice a bit more before giving up. My P-11 was fine for me from the start, but as Chan says, you can't possible shoot it as well as a gun with a longer barrel and sight radius. Put a silhoutte target no more than 10 feet away and check your accuracy. Try for all center torso-body mass hits.

Not to be unkind because I'm not a great marksman, but 2 to 3 inch groups at 10 yards with a P89 could be better also.

Pico
 
2"-3" groups at 10 yards? You should be pouring them through 1 ragged hole at 50 yards! (warning: irony detected!)

Actually, I'm with you on this. I was pretty disappointed with my accuracy with the P11, having become reasonably accurate at distance with my CZ75. You just need to practice keeping your hand still (don't anticipate!). I found my hand to be tired after 200 or so rounds and the shots were all over the place. I was actually more accurate with my rested off-hand. Go figure.

Apparently you can do a few things you can do to make your trigger more pleasant, although I haven't yet given them a try:

http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/triggersmoothing.htm
http://www.1bad69.com/keltec/triggermods.htm

Good luck with it. It seems like the ideal CCW pistol if we can all only get used to the trigger.
 
Sorry

Looking back, my comment seemed rude about 2 to 3 inch groups could be better at 10 yds. I should have said there may be something going on also when you shoot your Ruger which is magnified with the KT.

I also own a CZ and my first 200 or so rounds with it were pretty mediocre due to the fact I had not spent much time at the range before. I'm satisfied with my accuracy with my CZ and P-11 but know my P-11 will never touch my CZ's accuracy due to design limitations on the P-11.

I suggest you play with different grips with both guns to find one that is comfortable for you. I tried a super firm death grip and pullled everything left and low. I then started easing my grip and my patterns centered and tightened up. Some people do better with a lot of tension in their arms, some people even shoot better one handed. Try finding something that feels comfortable first and practice with that.

Pico
 
Chan sez is best.....

I felt the same way you did when I first took my P11 to the range. It is a strictly self-defense pistol so I practice from seven yards on in. I practice squeezing the trigger very quickly to simulate an emergency situation. You can always "stage" the trigger for more accurate shots to impress the other shooters on the range but that is not good practice for self-defense.

Unlike most of my other shooting, I practice a very strong weak-sided grip and a fairly rigid shooting hand grip. Again, the idea with a self-defense pistol is to fire quickly and accurately so try squeezing 3 to 4 shots off in rapid succession as quickly as you can pull the trigger.

The P11 has made me a better overrall shooter with anything else I shoot because of the necessity of keeping the gun on-target though the length of the long DA pull.

Stay with it and practice often; the P11 is a formidible self-defense weapon with a stout round and good capacity.
 
an update -

Thanks to everyone for the advice. I took it back out this last weekend and shot another 100 rounds through it.

Towards the end I was hitting coke cans at 10 paces with every shot - mostly by not squeezing the grip too tightly when pulling the trigger. I'll keep practicing, but I think it is definitely possible to shoot this little bugger with decent accuracy.

Thanks again...

:cool:
 
I don't think I've ever heard someone relate "DAO" and "fun" before.
 
Dorrin79,

Chan Bates and 22luvr gave great advice!

I can't stress dry firing with a dime on the slide enough. If you do it a hundred times per session for about 5 days running, you will develop good trigger control. Another dry firing trick is to use rubber bands to secure a cheap laser pointer to the slide adjusted with paper wads to where the point of aim is about where the laser dot appears about 20 feet away. Aim at a doorknob, and dry fire without having the dot jump off the doorknop. That REALLY tells the tale on your trigger control.

Another thing to stress is a firm, two handed grip. You'll become accurate and develop the muscle memory you need at the same time.

Actually, I find my P-11 surprisingly accurate as long as you develop and practice good trigger control.
 
I'd like to try the dry firing exercise - but I have heard that Kel-Tecs should never be dry fired lest they explode in a ball of molten plastic...

That said, where can I get some snap caps? Do most gun shops carry them?
 
Most gun shops carry them, but the ones you want are AZoom brand. They never wear out (comparatively).

Pachmyer brand are fine too, but they get pretty rough looking after a few hundred dry fires. However, they use a sping loaded fake brass primer, so I suppose they keep right on working even though the "primer" gets to looking like it's had it.

I've bought Pachmyer at the gun shop and AZoom over the Internet. Lyman just sprung to mind. Maybe that's the maker of both.
 
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