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DC Brief Released!

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Jon, you've missed something big.

At the time the 14th was passed, or rather beginning a minute after it's passage, black males had civil rights, but not (yet) political rights. Put another way, a black man had the same civil rights as a white female, or a green-card holder today. (Blacks didn't get political rights until the 15th Amendment a few years later - also pushed for by Bingham and company).

Yet if you read John Bingham's arguments between 1865 and 1868 regarding the proposed 14th, you'll see that he was *specifically* including the right to arms in the list of civil rights blacks were gaining. Right there in Congress, he said the new freemen should be able to kill attacking whites (or anybody else with ill intent).

So the civil right to personal defense became "decoupled" to some extent from the original 1792-era political right of militia duty, which along with voting, jury service rights and the right to run for office are the four main political rights we have.

Now, this doesn't mean militia service went away. But it does mean that personal defense gained significant protections in 1868.

It gets better.

In order for a black man to pack heat in 1868 South Carolina fr'instance (often cited as having the worst civil rights issues before and after the war), he would have to pack concealed to avoid being shot dead in the street at first sight.

But wait! There's more!

By 1868 we're no longer talking about flintlocks. The Mormons had invented the snub-nose revolver. Everybody knew S&W's patent on the through-bored revolver cylinder was going to run out in 1872 and sure enough it spurred a boost in firearms creativity. The Gatling Gun was invented in 1862 and by 1865 the Union was fielding whole regiments armed with 15-shot (can you say "high cap"?) leverguns.

I'm 41. In 4 years I'll be out of the "unorganized militia". Screw the militia. The 14th Amendment gives us a direct constitutional right to personal defense and arguably CCW, regardless of age, gender, race, religion, etc.

And as an extra special bonus with this offer only(!), we just freakin' MIGHT get back the "right to travel without pass or passport" that seems to have gone AWOL between 1856 and the present.

If you're not familiar with the research into what John Bingham and company were thinking, start with Amar's article cited:

http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Amar1.html

Bingham went so far as to state that "The People" language was deliberate versus "The Citizens" so as to give basic civil rights to legal alien residents. The quote to that effect is right there in that link.

Amar wrote this up in clearer language in his 1998 book "The Bill Of Rights" along with extensive Bingham quotes including (to Amar's hilariously obvious horror) support for armed self defense. He had accidentally re-discovered the same quotes Stephen Halbrook (NRA attorney) had published in his 1984 book "That Every Man Be Armed" and if you read both as I have, it's obvious they went down exactly the same path.

Amar didn't like my pointing this out when I met him, either. He also looked sick when I mentioned the state of firearms development in 1868 because he tossed in the obligatory "well maybe we have a right to flintlocks" thing at the very end, the silly git :).

Jim March
 
Regarding the first, and most lengthy, argument, is that the 2A must be read in exclusively militaristic terms and purposes....thus, that it does not and cannot protect arms for private use such as self defense, hunting, sports, etc. This is known academically as the "Sophisticated Collective Rights view."

Help me understand, please?

How does the "Sophisticated Collective Rights" view of the Second Amendment square with the view by the BATFE and others that firearms must have "sporting purpose"?

Isn't there a conflict when the BATFE only allows import of firearms with a sporting purpose for individual use and the Second Amendment does not protect those firearms? Under this view shouldn't the BATFE allow only firearms with a military and non-sporting purpose?
 
I posted this in another thread, but it's more appropriate here:

It worries me a bit that the Heller decision now before the Supreme Court spoke of guns which are "lineal descendants" of militia weapons of old. I expect to live to see directed energy weapons which will not be descended from any powder weapon, and I think we should preserve the ability of citizens to own those as well. In 200 or 300 years, we might need lasers and/or machine guns to fight an oppressive government.

The ban on machine guns manufactured after 1986 will eventually be a complete ban as all of the grandfathered-in guns break or are otherwise lost. It's already a ban for most of us, who can't spend 5 figures on a gun. That's bad enough, but the "lineal descendants" thing in the DC Circuit opinion really troubles me. What if we reach a time when the weapons in common military use are not lineal descendants of powder guns?
 
I think you DO understand, Robert. You're just a little confused because you expect government to make sense.

Seriously? I'm almost sure I've missed something important or misunderstood something important. Not arguing, by the way, only trying to resolve a problem that really troubles me and seems beyond my own resources.
 
How does the "Sophisticated Collective Rights" view of the Second Amendment square with the view by the BATFE and others that firearms must have "sporting purpose"?
OK, I think their answer would be that the 2A applies to militia members, and they would say that's the National Guard. The BATFE regulates us ordinary plebes who are not in an organized militia. The 2A doesn't apply to us.

It's interesting to ask these folks what would have happened if Miller had a Browning Automatic Rifle instead of a sawed off shotgun, and had shown up in court with a reasonably competent lawyer.
 
OK, I think their answer would be that the 2A applies to militia members, and they would say that's the National Guard. The BATFE regulates us ordinary plebes who are not in an organized militia. The 2A doesn't apply to us.

So would their argument be that the Second Amendment acknowledges a right of militiamen and the BATFE more or less graciously extends a privilege to others? Then the right of course is absolute and guaranteed but the privilege, like any other, is limited and may be altered or withdrawn?

That would make logical sense. It's strained but least there's logic to it. Thanks.
 
Yes, that's pretty much it. I'd just point out that the BATFE enforces laws made by Congress. It is our representatives who are extending to us the privilege of guns with a sporting use.
 
It's interesting to ask these folks what would have happened if Miller had a Browning Automatic Rifle instead of a sawed off shotgun, and had shown up in court with a reasonably competent lawyer.

Or shown up in court at all. Oops! He was dead!
 
my analysis of the brief - Part One

OK...I've read the brief and other relevant sources of information, and hashed this out over a couple cups of coffee this morning. These are just my own, personal opinions of course. Your comments are more than welcome!


Megistopoda’s analysis of the District of Columbia’s Brief for Petitioners, submitted 4 January 2007 to the Supreme Court of the United States in DC v. Heller (No. 07-290)

The question (paraphrased) before the Supreme Court: “Whether the following provisions – A.) registration requirement not allowing registration of handguns, B.) requirement that firearms be unloaded and disassembled or bound by a trigger lock, and C.) licensing (effectively impossible to obtain) requirement to carry a handgun (including from room to room in owner’s home) – violate the Second Amendment rights of individuals who are not affiliated with any state-regulated militia, but wish to keep handguns and other firearms for private use in their homes.”

The Brief and Joint Appendix are available here:
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/up...dc-v-heller.pdf
http://www.scotusblog.com/wp/wp-content/up...dc-v-heller.pdf

This analysis assumes that the reader is at least somewhat familiar with this case as it now stands before the Supreme Court, and with the proceedings in the court below (the DC Federal District court). If you are not, there are many sources for such information, including here: http://dcguncase.com/blog/

In its brief, the District forwards three different arguments; they appear to me to be nested, in that if the first argument fails, the second may withstand scrutiny, and so on. These arguments/sections are as follows:

1) The Second Amendment Protects Only Militia-Related Firearm Rights. They argue that the 2A must be read with an exclusively militaristic purpose. In this section, the District’s argument rests on the merits of the so-called Sophisticated Collective Rights view.

2) The Second Amendment Does Not Apply to Laws Limited to the District of Columbia. In the section above, the District argues that the 2A protects the rights of states to maintain militias, but as DC is not a state, protections outlined in the 2A do not apply there.

3) The District’s Reasonable Gun-Control Laws Do Not Infringe The Right to Keep and Bear Arms. In this section, the District argues that even if the 2A protects individual, private ownership and use of arms, and even if this protection applies to residents of the District, the District’s laws are reasonable because they are predicated on the prediction that they will enhance public safety.

Statement of the Case
In the Statement, DC commences by stating that the Nation’s capital has regulated guns for two centuries - initially with laws forbidding the firing of guns in residential areas, and culminating with today’s total prohibition on handguns and functional long arms. While this history is true, what the statement effectively if not ironically does is outline the very real “Slippery Slope” argument. This phenomenon is addressed in a Hamline Law Review paper by Olson and Kopel (1999), which provides an analysis of the situation in England: ( http://www.guncite.com/journals/okslip.html ). To visualize the “slippery slope”, imagine a graph with time on the X-axis and gun rights on the Y-axis; time runs from past to present on the X-axis, and gun rights run from absolutely no infringement at the top to absolute infringement at the bottom. Notwithstanding the “cold dead hands” types, and common criminals to whom gun laws don’t necessarily matter, we are talking about gun rights “allowed” by institutionalized law. If you examine the history of gun control in the United States, you will witness increasingly more restrictive laws over time. Thus, over time, gun rights have moved down this “slippery slope” with the passage of gun regulations (infringements) over time. Based on history, it is apparent that movement on the line is not equally bi-directional; it appears very easy to move down the line, and very difficult to move up. Hence, the “slippery slope.” The only logical end-point of this history, and of that line, is an eventual absolute infringement of the right to keep and bear arms.

1) The Second Amendment Protects Only Militia-Related Firearm Rights.

In this section, the District seems to be forwarding on its merits the classic Sophisticated Collective Rights view (SCR) of the Second Amendment. This differs from the older Collective Rights view in that it protects an individual right to bear and keep arms but ONLY if said individual is an active member in an organized (or state-regulated) militia. Membership in the unorganized militia outlined in the Militia Act of 1903 does not apply here. This view is, well, “sophisticated” as far as anti-gun ownership arguments go. The argument to me hinges on two main points – A.) whether there is evidence that the Founding Fathers considered that there were also protections for gun ownership outside organized militia, and B.) whether “the people” as it appears in the 2A is somehow different from “the people” as it appears elsewhere in the Bill of Rights. The SCR view necessarily limits “the people” to a select subset of persons that are active participants in a state-organized militia. Regarding B.), I think that the ruling in the Fifth District Court of Appeals (United States v. Emerson, 2001) is likely to stand in the Supreme Court, and I won’t comment further than to offer a summary from the Emerson opinion: “For the sophisticated collective rights model to be viable, the word "people" must be read as the words "members of a select militia". The individual rights model, of course, does not require that any special or unique meaning be attributed to the word "people." It gives the same meaning to the words "the people" as used in the Second Amendment phrase "the right of the people" as when used in the exact same phrase in the contemporaneously submitted and ratified First and Fourth Amendments. [new paragraph] There is no evidence in the text of the Second Amendment, or any other part of the Constitution, that the words "the people" have a different connotation within the Second Amendment than when employed elsewhere in the Constitution.”

Regarding A.), which I believe is likely to gain some attention, the District argues that there is no such evidence, and bases much of their argument on selective reading of US v. Miller, 1939 (the main 2A Supreme Court case to date), on academic works by Gary Wills, Saul Cornell, and papers published in the controversial Chicago-Kent Law Review. Incidentally, Cornell and the Kent review have been funded heavily by the Joyce Foundation of Chicago, an organization that also heavily funds groups such as Violence Policy Center, Legal Community Against Violence, International Association of Chiefs of Police, as well as myriad public health and injury research program, all of which are thinly veiled as legitimate violence prevention and research advocates. One does not have to look far to realize that the common if not principal theme among these organizations is the advocacy of strict gun control laws or any such policy that reduces the number of firearms in the hands of Americans, lawful or otherwise. It is not a stretch for me to say that this biased advocacy, as well as the juggernaut of literature propped up by this funding, will be clearly evident to and taken into consideration by the Supreme Court Justices. In a Tennessee Law Review paper, Kates et al. (1994) effectively expose the motives and intent of such organizations and the research they fund, summarized as follows: “…the anti-gun health advocacy literature is a ‘sagecraft’ in which partisan academic ‘sages’ prostitute scholarship, systematically inventing, misinterpreting, selecting, or otherwise manipulating data to validate preordained political conclusions.” The Kates et al. paper is available here ( http://www.guncite.com/journals/tennmed.html ). Needless to say, this web of special interest funding and the partisan literature it has created is controversial in as much as it is biased. Such evidence will be available to the Justices and I predict that they will see through much (in terms of reasonable doubt) of this special interest literature. These statements also apply to the 3rd section of DC’s argument (see below), where it is argued that their gun control laws are reasonable because they do what they are supposed to do – reduce crime and enhance public safety – as evidenced by the results reported in the anti-gun health advocacy literature.

In any event and the creative argument of DC notwithstanding, it is possible that their SCR arguments will fail on the merits. I say this in part because this argument was pretty effectively devastated by a paper published by Randy Barnett entitled “Was the Right to Keep and Bear Arms Conditioned on Service in an Organized Militia? The paper is available here ( http://law.bepress.com/cgi/viewcontent.cgi...ontext=expresso ). Thus, there are several well-written treatments and refutations of the claims made by those who espouse the SCR view, and these sources might serve well to weaken, if not destroy, the District’s first argument.

2) The Second Amendment Does Not Apply To Laws Limited To The District Of Columbia.

This is a pretty involved question, and it is difficult to predict the direction in which it might lead. Basically, the District of Columbia is a federal entity, and as such, it is governed by no state laws. It is reasonable to argue that the District is under the direct rule of the Congress. The District’s city council argues that the 2A limits only the power of Congress and the national government from disarming state militias, and that laws limited to the District raise no federalism concerns and thus do not implicate the 2A. But I strongly doubt the District would argue that the right to free speech, immunity from unreasonable searches and seizures, etc. do not apply to residents of DC. That is because those rights have been incorporated under the 14th amendment, whereas second amendment rights have not (yet) been so incorporated. Therein lies a conundrum; the District is relying on their argument that the 2A restricts the congress only from disarming those members of state-organized militias, and because the District is not a state those protections don’t apply. The conundrum surrounding this line of argumentation is that it may open a real can of worms for the District. Let me explain.

If the first argument, the Sophisticated Collective Rights position, fails, it might be simple enough, and even expedient for the Supreme Court to rule that since the District of Columbia is a federal entity, that it is directly constrained by the language of the 2A from prohibitive actions of Congress, thus invalidating the City Council’s laws. That way the incorporation issue would remain to be taken up at a later date. The District of Columbia is a curious entity politically. Although there is a municipal government and a Mayor, Congress has the supreme authority over the city and district, which results in citizens having less self-governance than residents of the states. As a related result, District citizens do not enjoy representation in congress by voting representatives or Senators. However, it is possible that the most expedient approach might be that if the 2A indeed protects an individual right that is fundamental (that would be using very strong language...but in my mind, appropriate language), it would bar local governments (read, the DC city council) from passing laws infringing on that right.

I say this because the following appears in the District’s brief: “This Court has squarely held that the Second Amendment was adopted as a limitation on only federal, not state, legislation [citing Presser v. Illinois, 1886]. Although the majority below suggested that the Second Amendment may subsequently have been incorporated against the states through the Fourteenth Amendment (PA37a-38a n.13), there is no dispute that the Second Amendment did not limit the states’ regulatory authority over firearms when enacted. [9, as footnote] Although this case does not present the question of incorporation, there is no reason to think that a right to possess guns for personal use is a “principle of justice so rooted in the traditions and conscience of our people as to be ranked as fundamental” and “implicit in the concept of ordered liberty” [citing Palko v. Connecticut, 1937]. Moreover, incorporation against the states would be curious since the Second Amendment was enacted to protect state prerogatives” (emphasis mine).

Here the District is, in my mind, risking moving the incorporation issue front-and-center in regard to their second argument. There is a great deal of evidence that the 2A was intended to be incorporated against state and local infringement via the Privileges and Immunities clause of the 14th Amendment. If this were done, it would invalidate not only DC’s gun ban, but those of Chicago, etc., and perhaps even such restrictions such as California’s “Assault Weapon” ban. The District’s argument obviously relies on the fact (a fact described as anomalous by Gura in Heller’s Response to Petition) that the 2A has not been incorporated against state and local governments via the 14th Amendment. This to me DOES potentially raise the question of incorporation in this very case, and it would not be a long leap from there for the Justices to include in their opinion something to the effect that the 14th constrains the actions of local governments. Also, note the emphasized text in the Districts’ brief above. I bring up the word fundamental, and opine that it's reasonably strong language thusly - all 50 states (and the District, I believe) provide provision for lawful use of deadly force in justified cases of self-defense. It is very easy to argue that a human being's right to self-defense from harm is not just a right....it is a fundamental, natural, inalienable right. I say that the right (and ergo, the means) to defense is fundamental based on this passage from the Declaration: “We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.”

Moreover, I would venture to guess that if you asked 1000 Americans the following question - "Do you feel that the right to defend yourself and your family is a fundamental principle of justice, rooted in your tradition and conscience?" - you would get very many answers in the affirmative. I am not saying that the right to defend ones' self is exactly the same as ones' right to possess a firearm....but it would be very easy to argue that the latter consistently and logically (even naturally) flows from the former. Even if one did not think or feel that way, I suspect many would still admit that there just might be a reason for someone to think that way. In stark contrast, the District of Columbia emphatically states that "there is no reason" to think that way.

[continued next post]
 
my analysis of the brief - Part Two

[continued from previous post]


3) The District’s Reasonable Gun-Control Laws Do Not Infringe The Right To Keep And Bear Arms.

This argument is the District’s “Hail Mary.” In the event that the 2A is found to protect the right of individual Americans to keep and bear arms for uses that may include but are not limited to service in a state-organized militia, and if the 2A is found to protect the rights of Americans that also just happen to be living in the District of Columbia, the District argues that, nonetheless, their laws don’t infringe on the right to keep and bear arms. I don’t know whether to consider this a Hail Mary pass, or a punt that might be easily blocked.

First, it is more than likely that many, if not most, Justices will care little for the “public policy” effects of such gun control laws. Their first and foremost job concern is whether such laws are constitutional.

Second, in this section the District makes certain claims that are patently untrue. For example, they argue that the District has acted properly to reduce gun violence (via their laws) without functionally disarming residents. But their law does not exempt the assembly of long guns, nor removal of trigger locks, even in the event of attack. It argues also that the Supreme Court has not adopted a per se rule regarding standards of arms protected….such as that of the court below “Once it is determined…that handguns are Arms referred to in the 2A, it is not open to the District to ban them.” In their brief, DC states: “Moreover, Miller never suggests that if a weapon is of the type that might be kept by someone in the militia, its potential status as an "arm" would be sufficient to render the weapon immune to proscription.” But the Supreme Court directly did just that, in this passage from Miller: “In the absence of any evidence tending to show that possession or use of a "shotgun having a barrel of less than eighteen inches in length" at this time has some reasonable relationship to the preservation or efficiency of a well regulated militia, we cannot say that the Second Amendment guarantees the right to keep and bear such an instrument.”

The District’s brief also presents statements that border on the ludicrous, including one statement regarding the criterion that protected arms be in “common use.” The District argues: “More importantly, the test leads to tragic results. It suggests, for instance, that Congress could ban the private ownership of a particularly dangerous weapon right after its invention, before it grows into common use…” Finally, they offer this ridiculous statement: “Unlike speech restrictions, gun regulations raise no risk of viewpoint discrimination and no specter of silencing the views of the opposition.” So effectively, the District is saying that gun regulations aren’t comparable to (or as onerous as) speech regulations, because even given gun bans, those whose rights have been violated still have the right to vocalize their opposition to being oppressed.

And even on the merits of the 3rd argument…that the gun ban is reasonable because it “saves lives and protects the public”…it might very easily fail. As I mentioned above, the District, throughout this section, relies quite heavily on studies done by public health advocates and the medical community…studies that are arguably partisan. The District even cites Arthur Kellerman, who published on the risk of keeping guns in the home in a series of papers in the New England Journal of Medicine (primary among Kates’ “anti-gun health advocacy literature” sources). Kellerman is the source of the following often-quoted statistic: “a homeowner's gun is 43 times more likely to kill a family member, friend, or acquaintance, than it is to kill someone in self-defense.” Much of his research has been debunked; Gary Kleck refers to Kellerman’s ratios as “nonsensical”, and one critic plausibly went as far as to say that “Kellermann's full data set would actually vindicate defensive gun ownership.” Yet the District relies on Kellerman’s research (and other controversial literature) to support their argument.

However, there is strong evidence coming out of criminological and sociological literature that suggests the opposite….that [armed] citizen self-defense against common criminals actually reduces violence perpetuated by criminals. Moreover, there is pretty strong evidence (studies by the Department of Justice and by the National Academies of Science) to conclude that the myriad firearm restrictions that have been enacted to date don't really affect the violence and the crimes that they were enacted to reduce. I won’t go on here…but suffice it to say that this criminological literature makes a very strong case, and it will be very difficult for the District’s arguments about the efficacy of their (obviously failed) social policy to stand real scrutiny. And that is the scrutiny that the Supreme Court will demand if they are to take the District’s 3rd argument seriously.

Personally, I feel that the brief is well-crafted. I truly think that they have done the best that they can, in the defense of their tenuous position. It is not at all surprising, given their strained arguments, that a brief to those arguments will necessarily be strained as well. All in all and as an advocate of constitutionally protected rights (including safe and lawful private-use gun ownership by individual Americans), I maintain reasonable confidence that the arguments in the District’s brief will in a general sense be refuted and defeated.
 
The Miller Decision? Miller was dead, his lawyer did not show
before the SCotUS, no defense but one justice, Reynolds,
heard the prosecution side (the government's case only.)
Miller 1939 is not a hang-you-hat-on-it decision for either
side. Heller (nee Parker) may prove to be undecisive as well.
 
Arguments needed in <i>D.C. v. Heller</i>

Jim March wrote:
> Jon, you've missed something big.
>
No, Jim, I haven't missed it. But you haven't gotten it quite right.

Before getting to the other points, I refer you to my article, "Intent of the Fourteenth Amendment was to Protect All Rights", Sep. 24, 2000, at http://www.constitution.org/col/intent_14th.htm , which cites the dissent of Justice Black he set forth in an Appendix in Adamson v. California, 332 U.S. 46 (1947), which became a chapter in Stephen P., Freedmen, the Fourteenth Amendment, and the Right to Bear Arms, 1866-1876, Westport, CT: Praeger, 1998, on which my article was based. You might want to become more familiar with what's on my website.

Your distinction between civil and political rights is inadequate. Yes, I know it has been used by others, but they didn't get it either. I set out the key ideas in my 1994 article, "Social Contract and Constitutional Republics" (updated 2007), at http://www.constitution.org/soclcont.htm , written even before I created the website, as part of the Texas Militia Papers. Militia is the duty that comes with the social contract. If you are a member of society, you have the (moral or societal) militia duty. Do not confuse the moral or societal duty with the legal duty to respond to call-ups, which derives from the constitution of government, which creates the power to enforce it with statutory and judicial penalties, and may define a "mandatory" militia as a subset of the "general" militia. (See http://www.constitution.org/rsh/concon_jr.htm .) As a societal duty it is enforceable under the constitution of the society which pre-exists government, by such actions as refusal to protect those who refuse to perform it, or even by exile from territory under the control of the society (which with the society becomes the state). Don't confuse mandatory militia with general militia, or think that only officials can issue call-ups. Anyone may, and has a duty, to issue call-ups if he becomes aware of a threat ("hue and cry"), and there was a time when anyone who failed to respond to a well-founded call-up by a civilian could be penalized just like he could for failing to respond to a call-up by an official. It was only later that penalties for failing to respond to non-official call-ups were dropped, except as private civil actions.

The 14th and 15th amendments did not "create" any rights. They delegated new powers to Congress to pass legislation to protect rights, and created a jurisdiction for federal courts in cases between a citizen and his state involving an infringement of a right by a state agent. But that is not the creation of a right, only the creation of an additional remedy for rights. Every right must have a remedy (if only "self-enforcement"), but that doesn't mean every new remedy defines a new right.

Things like voting and holding office, since they stem from the constitution of government or statutes under it, are "privileges", as distinct from the "immunities" that stem from the constitution of nature or the constitution of society (and what the original Constitution calls "rights", although they are all restrictions on the exercise of government power, that is, immunities, as distinct from other kinds of rights).

Jury duty is a specialized form of militia duty, and societal, not what you are calling "political", and I am calling "governmental", such as voting and holding office ("citizenship"). (Another right, denizenship, the right to remain and return, is state-societal, not governmental, because a state can exist without a government, even if it seldom does for very long.)

Spend some time thinking through these distinctions, and reading how they work in articles, often quite old ones, on my website. You may find you gain some insights you didn't have previously.
 
I wonder how many of the District's legal team are poring over this thread, madly scribbling notes for use in fixing the mistakes when they submit their rebuttal to the other side's briefs.
 
I wonder how many of the District's legal team are poring over this thread, madly scribbling notes for use in fixing the mistakes when they submit their rebuttal to the other side's briefs.
 
Jon, I think you're technically right regarding a very sophisticated militia argument.

But I think there's no way in hell the Supremes will swallow it.

With people like Amar on our side and a metric buttload of scholarship, we have a real shot at restoring the P&I clause which has other benefits too.

Aguila Blanca: they can't "fix" their documents without revealing what a house of cards they've built for themselves.

Cruikshank and Presser together for one of the key foundations for all gun control in the US, with "Miller Mutilations" forming another. We have a real shot at blowing away Cruikshank just because it's malevolently evil, and Presser's cite of Barron as authority sinks Presser like a lead balloon.

Next on the agenda:

* I have clean up the language in general.

* I want better quotes from John Bingham. I'll prolly check Amar's 1998 book out of a library.

* Justice Black's dissent in Adamson is a must-see on this stuff, that'll get spliced in.
 
Jim March 2008/01/06 16:49 said:
Jon, I think you're technically right regarding a very sophisticated militia argument.

But I think there's no way in hell the Supremes will swallow it.

That my argument seems "very sophisticated" is not a good argument not to make it, if, as I contend, it is historically accurate and logically necessary. Nor can we base our litigation strategy on the premise that the members of the SC are too intellectually challenged to understand it, especially when it has never been presented to them before. The time to educate judges is not always now, but it almost always is. It is long past time to get back to original understanding, especially for those who think they have it and fall short.

I suggest that we all start by adopting and building on my arguments in this forum. Once you use them for a while, you will wonder how you ever thought they were exotic.
 
Wow - talk about an education! This thread is a MUST read. Maybe dumb question, but Presser v. Illinois is frequently brought up as only a congressional restriction (on 2A), yet it ends with (paraphrased); but the states may not restrict the people from the right to keep and bear arms, because the federal government would not have an armed militia when needed. I see that as a positive control on the states (back door incorporation?). Am I incorrect in thinking that Presser DOES put restrictions on the states, meaning the states may not restrict "keep and bear arms"?
sailortoo
Semper Paratus (also)
 
Their argument centers on the language of the 2nd Amendment being purely military, and that the right to keep and bear arms exists only within the context of a state-regulated militia, not the context of self-defense or the defense of one's home. If DC is not a state, and has no state militia, the 2nd doesn't apply, say they.

Interesting. How about this....

Since DC is not a state, then DC is governed strictly by the Constitution as the 10th Amendment clearly states any powers not given to the Feds are reserved to the People or the States. DC can have no laws that are not federal. Good bye speed limits. Doesn't DC have a Mayor and city-like officials? Not anymore.
 
sailortoo: hmmmmm...lemme go back and re-read Presser top to bottom on that. I need to anyways, and look up the rest of it's citations.

It's not impossible it was "schitso" on this point.

In discussing the Fed's ability to control state-level RKBA violations, Presser mostly just says "see also Cruikshank of 11 years ago". So Cruikshank is the real issue.

The DC attorneys however mostly cite to Presser, not Cruikshank (they may even be dimly aware of how stone-cold evil Cruikshank is, same as Judge Reinhardt seems to have clued in on it in the Silveira case). When you look closely at Presser, it cites Barron as authority and that's just instant death as far as Presser's credibility goes today.

Put another way, Cruikshank was evil and Presser was blatantly stupid. Combined they're one of two key linchpins on ALL gun control in the US.

Ohhhh yeah.
 
This is the passage referred to by Sailortoo:

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/presser.txt

OCTOBER TERM, 1885. Opinion of the Court.

It is undoubtedly true that all citizens capable of bearing arms constitute the reserved military force or reserve militia of the United States as well as of the States, and in view of this prerogative of the general government, as well as of its general powers, the States cannot, even laying the constitutional provision in question out of view, prohibit the people from keeping and bearing arms, so as to deprive the United States of their rightful resource for maintaining the public security, and disable the people from performing their duty to the general government. But, as already stated, we think it clear that the sections under consideration do not have this effect.
 
Heller might have claimed that he had a right to keep a handgun because it is a militia-type weapon, avoiding any issues about the Second Amendment's scope. He could reference both Presser and Miller to support the assertion that there is federal protection of a general right to keep militia type weapons. But instead he claims that the Second Amendment protects the right to personal arms for personal use, which seems to defy cases like Presser and Miller.
 
Ah. Right. And if you look at the Cruikshank decision, they agree that rape, arson and murder aren't good things and "shouldn't" be done.

The evil part in Cruikshank is that they barred the Federal gov't from making sure the state didn't do such dastardly things.

This part of Presser can likely be read the same way: the court is talking about what the state SHOULD (or should not) do but without enforcement powers at the Fed level, the states have a practical right to do exactly that.

Remember folks, there's three kinds of rights: civil, political and practical. The latter is whatever you can get away with!
 
if the ban is upheld, then I hope they have a good explanation as to why, because the majority of their points pretty much discredit the only one decent point that has a chance in hell of working for them.

"guns...militia...not...blah blah" *decent, but flawed point*
"we dont think the constitution applies to us"
"you dont 'need'...blah blah"

this kind of argument would barely pass in college. I find it hard to believe that it actually works in a legal system.
 
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