DC CIRCUIT COURT STRIKES DOWN GUN LAW ON 2A GROUNDS

Status
Not open for further replies.
can someone explain to a layman like me in plain English what good stuff can happen soon as a result of this decision?

As I understand it, we now have another legal precedent for RKBA as an INDIVIDUAL RIGHT with a pretty short track to the Supreme Court.

The SC has been avoiding any sort of decision on this in the past because...

Best case scenario - This allows us to work further and invalidate most of the unconstitutional gun control laws that exist. The anti's will moan and gnash their teeth and attempt to come after us legally and it'll probably get ugly. It also means a reduction in governmental control.

Worst case scenario - It goes to the Supreme Court and they go senile and rule RKBA is not an individual right thus supporting the anti-gun types. At least some individuals will refuse to accept that ruleing and that will get REALLY ugly fast.

Most likely scenario - The entire notion gets tied up in the same sort of legal tape it always has and the baby steps of progress go to the group willing to stick out the long and grinding process. Basically a war of attrition with the Supreme Court basically deciding not to decide.

(pardon misspellings/bad grammer, in addition to loosing an hour to the time change, I had to come in to work early... I'm almost asleep at the keyboard)
 
Gunsmith asks,
can someone explain to a layman like me in plain English what good stuff can happen soon as a result of this decision?
That is of course the question, Gunsmith. I suspect that the important word in your question is "soon." If I am right about that, then I also suspect that the answer to your question is "Not much."

To overstate the resulting situation at one extreme, if the Supreme Court should affirm Parker next week in its entirety I would not recommend that you walk into your local bank carrying a machine gun.

At the other extreme it is possible that if you live in a state which now prohibits you from having a handgun in your home for self-defense, after the Court affirms Parker you might expect that after jumping through exhausting and perhaps expensive administrative and judicial hoops for perhaps a long time you might find yourself authorized by some judge to have that handgun. Don't be surprised, however, if, notwithstanding what you read in Parker, the state might first make you risk your freedom.

This is not doom and gloom, Gunsmith. This is the way the judicial system works. I predict that none of our present THRers will be alive when it is finally learned just what the Second Amendment means even if the Supreme Court affirms Parker. In fact I suspect that this question will remain open forever.

Just take a look at the way the other things on the Bill of Rights have developed through time. For a while we thought, for example, that we knew what the 5th meant -- then along comes the Miranda case. For years we thought we had a pretty good idea what the 4th meant -- and then along comes the Patriot Act and, just last week, the truth about the FBI's National Security Letters. For years we thought we knew what the 6th meant -- and then we see Gitmo, with prisoners confined for years with no trial and no effective counsel. For years we thought we knew what the 8th meant -- and then we see Abu Ghraib.

It is no accident that I have gone out of my way to politicize this, Gunsmith, and I hasten to admit this before the flame-throwers come out -- but, as I have said before, this is not cut-and-dried. There are political questions here, and we must never forget that the Supreme Court is a political animal, whether you might from time-to-time label it as conservative or liberal. It makes no difference. One does not just "read the Constitution as it was written" and thereby dispose of the problems. It will always -- always -- be read as the mind of the reader reads it.

So -- we will have to bide our time and watch things develop, and at the same time restrain ourselves and not hurt our own case in a political sense.

All the best,

Jim
 
can someone explain to a layman like me in plain English what good stuff can happen soon as a result of this decision?

Soon? Nothing. In the next 5-10 years, lots and lots.

To put this in automobile racing terms, this is far from the victory lap. This is more like the first lap of the race. The past 20 years of scholarship and preparation are akin to building the race car and tuning the engine. The 94-2000 election cycles were the qualifying laps of the race, they proved we had a chance. Parker represents the first couple of laps around the track that we completed without dropping any parts out the bottom of the engine. A lot can happen between here and victory.
 
I have finished reading the court's decision, and although I am thrilled with the conclusion, the rationale on two points greatly concerns me.

Those portions are: "the militia" and the what "reasonable restrictions" are when applied to the right which the court recognizes. By far, these are the weakest elements of the ruling.

Portion #1 - Whenever the militia is mentioned it is in military terms, and the insistence that ones rights to arms outside of a connection to "the militia" seems tortured and tenuous. In contrast, the parts of the ruling referencing "the people" and "a free State" are abundantly clear and solidly historically supported. I say "tortured and tenuous" because I don't think that this portion of the ruling has anywhere near the dissuasive power of the others.

For instance, "We quite agree that the militia was a collective body designed to act in concert".

Bottom line, I don't feel that one predisposed to a "militia = organized military body" way of thinking, or one on the fence will reach a similar conclusion about either the separate nature of that portion of the 2nd Amendment, nor the applicability to all citizens. IMHO, this is by far the weakest part of the supporting analysis. Maybe I'm too harsh, but it this "true believer" isn't swayed, how can one expect others not so inclined to be so?

Let me be clear - it's not that I don't find a citizenry with a choice to be armed (and is the court saying that the citizenry has no choice but to be so??) a necessary thing, but just that this ruling fails us in this area.


Portion #2 - The court's delineation of "Reasonable restrictions" on the concluded pre-existing right. For instance, it is presumably reasonable (my emphasis) "to prohibit the carrying of weapons... to a church, polling place, or public assembly...", and the mention made of registration of all things! "The registration of firearms gives the government information as to how many people would be armed for militia service if called up." I just don't see how one can accept the ruling as a whole, but disclaim elements such as this.


Please show me the error of my thinking.


BB62
 
A roundup of commentary

Appeals Court Overturns DC Handgun Ban: A federal appeals court
yesterday struck down the District's 30-year-old gun ban, ruling that
the right to bear arms as guaranteed in the Second Amendment applies to
individuals and not only to militias. D.C. Mayor Adrian M. Fenty said he
was "outraged" by the court's decision, which overturns a law that "has
been unquestioned for more than 30 years...The ruling also turns aside
longstanding precedents and marks the first time in the history of the
United States that a federal appeals court has struck down a gun law on
Second Amendment grounds."

http://www.washtimes.com/metro/20070309-102401-2730r.htm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/09/AR2007030902416.html
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54627
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,258067,00.html
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=/Nation/archive/200703/NAT20070309d.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/10/w...oref=slogin&ref=us&pagewanted=all&oref=slogin
(Note clickable graphic of areas covered by conflicting appellate
rulings and link to actual decision.)
http://www.prnewswire.com/news/inde...07/0004543259&EDATE=FRI+Mar+09+2007,+01:05+PM
(Brief report contains links to the decision and to the original complaint.)

Related Commentary:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54640
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2007/03/major_second_amendment_decisio.html
http://www.theconservativevoice.com/article/23373.html
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/03-09-2007/0004543427&EDATE=
http://www.volokh.com/posts/chain_1173454696.shtml
http://johnrlott.tripod.com/2007/03/dc-gun-ban-struck-down.html
http://www.redstate.com/stories/fea..._court_of_appeals_and_second_amendment_rights
http://dougpowers.com/2007/03/10/a-victory-for-the-2nd-amendment/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/josh-sugarmann/court-to-dc-handguns-fo_b_43045.html
 
BB62

I don't think you have errors in your thinking but you may be exaggerating the threat a little. The court says in no uncertain terms this is an individual right. Citing historical precedent for a militia is addressing other issues.

Reasonable restrictions is a Pandora's Box but will be hard to refute. The government has issue to promote public safety balanced against freedom and liberty. This is a battle line on which we are already engaged and will continue to fight and extends to all our rights not just the 2A.
 
The reasonable restrictions bits are dicta.

The court wasnt presented with that as a question and the result didnt necessarily involve a conclusion as to whether any particular type of restriction was reasonable or not. It was just an unnecessary aside, presumably to reassure the people reviewing the decision that all chaos wont break out if they uphold this.
 
LawBot5000 says,
To put this in automobile racing terms, this is far from the victory lap. This is more like the first lap of the race. The past 20 years of scholarship and preparation are akin to building the race car and tuning the engine. The 94-2000 election cycles were the qualifying laps of the race, they proved we had a chance. Parker represents the first couple of laps around the track that we completed without dropping any parts out the bottom of the engine. A lot can happen between here and victory.

So very true, LawBot, but we must be cautious and observe that perhaps a wheel fell off the race leader in 2006. :)

I would suggest that we get the pit crew ready for some hard work.

Jim
 
The reasonable restrictions bits are dicta.

How does one select a portion of the ruling and say it is dicta? How is it so clearly an "unnecessary aside"?

I see no reason why that portion is such, and not others.

Citing historical precedent for a militia is addressing other issues.

What "other issues"?

They did a poor job in my estimation at clearly delineating a) why the "militia" portion is not controlling, and b) spelling out that the militia is something other than military-related.

IMHO, you have tossed off the substance of my post without offering substance of your own.


BB62
 
'What "other issues"?

They did a poor job in my estimation at clearly delineating a) why the "militia" portion is not controlling, and b) spelling out that the militia is something other than military-related.

IMHO, you have tossed off the substance of my post without offering substance of your own.'

Easy big guy we are on the same side here.

Look closely at pages 28-41 in the brief or better yet read the whole document. It addresses the militia question pretty well, much more eloquently than I ever could.
 
Look closely at pages 28-41 in the brief or better yet read the whole document. (my emphasis) It addresses the militia question pretty well, much more eloquently than I ever could.

As I said previously:
I have finished reading the court's decision, and although I am thrilled with the conclusion, the rationale on two points greatly concerns me.

To me, the militia portion of the ruling is plain old not persuasive when compared to the parts addressing the meaning of "free State" and "of the people".

I'm not taking issue with you so much as saying "If you think I am so off-base, how about strongly refuting my analysis?"

I would LOVE to have such a response, from you or whomever.

Meanwhile, I will re-read the section you suggested.


BB62
 
My prediction is that the antis will change their focus.

Up until now, the antis have not lobbied for the repeal of the Second Amendment. Instead, they have argued that the Second Amendment only protects the rights of members of the organized militia.

Now that a federal court has ruled the Second Amendment protects an individual right, the antis will lobby for its repeal.

Put another way...

In the past, you were the enemy. You were stupid because you didn't understand the meaning of the Second Amendment. All of that has changed. Now the enemy is the Second Amendment itself.
 
K-Romulus,

Quote:
"A well educated electorate, necessary for the good self-governance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read texts, shall not be infringed"

. . . apparently means that only registered voters are entitled to read books, and then only on-site at the local public library. And only government-owned books.

And of course, only those books that contribute to the "education" of the electorate, right? No Playboy, steamy novels, books about alternative forms of government, etc.


Molon Labe,

Now that a federal court has ruled the Second Amendment protects an individual right, the antis will lobby for its repeal.

I disagree, they will wait until the USSC decides what to do, and then (if) they decide in our favor, they will do what you suggest.


BB62
 
I think they have long realized that they don't have a chance in hell of getting a 3/4 majority of the states to vote for repeal, that's why they haven't even tried.

I've never done a count but there are a LOT of states out there, even blue ones, that have the RKBA expressly in their state Constitutions. I'm pretty sure voting for repeal of the 2nd would set up Constitutional crisis in those states.

"Prohibition" is the historical association they want to dodge as long as possible, especially given their reversals at the state level. "Reasonable restrictions" will be their mantra, same as it ever was, because even being an individual right still leaves a lot of opening for that tack.
 
"Reasonable restrictions" will be their mantra, same as it ever was, because even being an individual right still leaves a lot of opening for that tack.

You're right. My bad.


BB62
 
Now if "reasonable restrictions" doesn't work in the long run, repeal would be all they'd have left.

I think though that the nation would be pretty much done with the issue at that point, since among the majority of undecideds most would be happy knowing some, if only "feel good", restrictions are in place, well short of any bans.
 
they will wait until the USSC decides what to do, and then (if) they decide in our favor, they will do what you suggest.
I don't believe they'll wait; they are probably already working on preemptive measures. You will soon hear rumblings on how the Second Amendment should be repealed.
 
Right, I pointed that out.

But they then have an uphill fight against actual explicitly enumerated rights in more than (I'm guessing but pretty confident) 25% of the several states and all of the public odium that would be cast on them for pushing another "Prohibition".

They would be tying their credibility to a program conceded by both left and right as an abject failure, with all the current examples of failed nationwide gun/drug/insert cause of the week bans worldwide for evidence.

It'd take a heck of a set of circumstances, in my view, for repeal to gain any traction.

Politically, I think they'd be better served with the restriction plan, it plays better in Peoria.
 
Carebear says,
I think though that the nation would be pretty much done with the issue at that point, since among the majority of undecideds most would be happy knowing some, if only "feel good", restrictions are in place, well short of any bans.
Of course "reasonable restrictions" is precisely what those who share my views see as being the ultimate compromise between strongly held views. The devil is, as usual, in the details, the all-encompassing details here being "what is reasonable?" and "who decides what is reasonable?" As suggested, this would keep the legislatures, courts and lawyers busy for years, and most of us would probably not live long enough to see even the general outlines of where we are going.

Speaking of the devil, let me be the devil's advocate.

I have often been tempted to ask here on this forum how many THRers think that the Second Amendment permits absolutely no restrictions whatsoever on RKBA, and that we should accept nothing less, but I have not had the courage to do so.

This reminds me somewhat of the old chuckle we have all heard before, about the fellow who asked the gal if she would sleep with him. A shocked "No" and a slap to his face was the answer. So he asked if she would sleep with him for one hundred dollars. The same answer, and another slap. Then he asked if she would sleep with him for ten million dollars. The answer this time? You all know the answer. He responded, "now that we are familiar with your moral values, let's negotiate about price."

The similarity? If we are ready to accept "reasonable restrictions" in order to get to where we all want to go, perhaps it is just about time to accept our less than total victory in DC and begin to negotiate the price.

All in jest PLEASE. I have quite correctly been accused recently of being uptight, so I am reforming. ;)

Jim
 
'Portion #1 - Whenever the militia is mentioned it is in military terms, and the insistence that ones rights to arms outside of a connection to "the militia" seems tortured and tenuous. In contrast, the parts of the ruling referencing "the people" and "a free State" are abundantly clear and solidly historically supported. I say "tortured and tenuous" because I don't think that this portion of the ruling has anywhere near the dissuasive power of the others.

For instance, "We quite agree that the militia was a collective body designed to act in concert".'


--- Okay maybe I am reading you wrong. First you say that the RKBA as an individual is put forth as an individual right is abundantly clear and solidly supported than you say it is not dissuasive.

Which is it? You do realize that 'The People' refer to an individual right and not an imaginary collective right? Or the right of a state or militia group? This is very clear in the brief. The state and the people are two completely separate entities.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top