deadly force to stop road rage?

[carterbeauford]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...205road-rage,1,933865.story?coll=chi-news-hed

A 49-year-old Chicago woman, who allegedly refused to stop for paramedics and dragged one of them for several feet, was ordered held in lieu of $60,000 bail Tuesday.

Athena Morris, of the 7900 block of South Ellis Avenue, appeared before Cook County Criminal Court Judge Colleen Hyland on charges of aggravated battery, reckless driving, leaving the scene of an accident, failing to carry her driver's license and criminal trespass to a vehicle.

Paramedics were loading a patient into an ambulance at about 2:15 p.m. Monday in the 8200 block of South Langley Avenue when Morris tried to drive around the ambulance onto the curb and toward people nearby, prosecutors said.

Paramedics tried to stop her car by reaching inside and turning off the ignition, police said. But she rolled up her window, trapping a paramedic by his arm, and tried to drive away, prosecutors said.

She drove in reverse and dragged him for about four car lengths before she fled down an alley, prosecutors said. Chicago Fire Department personnel apprehended her.

The paramedic's right hip, right shoulder and right knee were injured, prosecutors said.

Morris was treated at Jackson Park Hospital. Police said it was later discovered Morris was driving a rental car without authorization.

I am not familiar with the law in IL, but this sounds like assault with a deadly weapon where I live. There is little chance that anyone in Chicago would have been legally carrying a handgun... assuming this had happened anywhere else in free America, do you think deadly force would have been justified? Hitting someone with a car is one thing, but I think continuing to drive is where the line was crossed. Accidents happen, this one sounds intentional. People have died being dragged by cars.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Even though it would be justifiable

I doubt that putting one into the driver would save my life in that situation... For all I know, assuming a one hit kill, his weight might just settle on the gas, at which point I'm attached to an out of control car.

Seems like the smart move is to use every bit of upperbody strength you've got to detach yourself or heave in/on top or break the window.

Of course, if he's trying to scrape you off and you can't get free, might as well take him with you I guess.

But this is one of those self-defense situations where I doubt a gun would help.

 

[BullfrogKen]

TheLastBoyScout said: But this is one of those self-defense situations where I doubt a gun would help.

Agreed.

This story has very little relevance for S&T. I'll let it stay open for now, but with such little lattitude, I don't see this one making it far here.

 

[rmurfster]

But this is one of those self-defense situations where I doubt a gun would help.

I don't know... the first thing that came into my mind was to use my gun to break the window.

Richard

 

[carterbeauford]

This story has very little relevance for S&T. I'll let it stay open for now, but with such little lattitude, I don't see this one making it far here.

I thought it appropriate. What got me thinking was the story awhile back of the officers opening fire on a car that tried to run them down. That and people nearly getting run down on a daily basis on my college campus. Just wondering, at what point does one draw to stop serious bodily injury? I admit I would be apprehensive using a gun to defend against a car and it would have to be a pretty bad situation for me to even consider it.

A car is a deadly weapon, just not a conventional one. We must be prepared for all threats.

 

[TheLastBoyScout]

Murf--good idea... I guess I'm locked into the "guns are for killing the enemy" mindset--putting a few rounds into the window would be a quick way to break it.

if you didnt nail your arm... or a bystander...


off course you could pistol whip it too if you've got a steelframe... if your willing to risk the nd.

 

[atk]

This story has very little relevance for S&T. I'll let it stay open for now, but with such little lattitude, I don't see this one making it far here.

Howsabout: don't reach into a vehicle. If something must be done, make them come out, maybe open the door and pull them out, but don't ever put yourself into a position where you'll be dragged.

 

[grampster]

The trouble with being in fear of you life, is that one needs to define it while in a moment of great stress and or fear. Later, the police, a prosecutor, a judge or a jury will have the convenience of being able to dissect the occurrence in the quiet of an office or a courtroom.

The best any lawfully armed citizen could hope for is to never be placed in the position of having to make that decision. That is why I think the states that have passed Castle Doctrines, No Need to Retreat laws, and being protected from lawsuits by criminals or the families of criminals are so important. Those laws recognize the fact that an innocent bystander may be forced by circumstances to act in a way that they'd particularly wouldn't want to. The law then gives some latitude, or tip the scales a bit when the dispassionate scrutiny begins after the fact.

Those of us who have chosen to go armed in these days, hopefully will be thoughtful folks who are cognizant of the impact a decision to become involved in a situation where deadly force may have to be applied may have.

So, the question really can't be answered as the singular circumstance dictates the action.

 

[tellner]

This brings to mind something that happened to me a number of years ago. It was during the depths of the Rose Festival. A play I had tickets for was impossible to get to (much less find a parking space), so after a fruitless and frustrating 45 minutes I went back over the river towards home. I stopped at a Dunkin' Donuts and hadn't even turned off the car when Officer Friendly started knocking on the window demanding the usual pieces of paper and threatening to have my vehicle confiscated for trying to pick up hookers.

While he was doing a visual inspection of the inside of my car, old newspapers, coffee cups and all, he did something really really stupid. He stuck his arm and head all the way into a vehicle that was still running. I was thinking that if I'd really been the low life he thought it would have been the perfect time to hang onto his head and throw the car into reverse. But that would have been wrong and even more stupid.

After it turned out that I didn't even have an outstanding parking ticket and he didn't really have any reason to hold me he reluctantly said that he "couldn't arrest me" but would have me arrested and my car confiscated if he ever heard of me talking to "known prostitutes". For once in my life I resisted the temptation to say something cutting. After all "The Sheriff's got his problems, too. He will surely take them out on you."

 

[JaxNovice]

I always found it disturbing that someone in car can do something reckless and or malacious with little consequence. How many times has someone gotten all wound up in a car near you and "engaged" you in some way? Cut you off, stomped on their brakes in front of you, tried to run you off the road......These actions have less consequence than if you took a shot or a swing at at someone. Bugs me...

 

[Jeff White]

An automobile being used as a deadly weapon and shooting to stop it is covered in this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=237797

The paramedic/fireman fell into the trap of reaching into a vehicle. You place yourself in a very bad position when you do that. You are off balance, you have handed a potential opponent a great handle to grab and control you with. Being trapped and dragged wasn't the only possible outcome. He could have been punched, stabbed, shot, bit, strangled......

Jeff

 

[go_bang]

I always found it disturbing that someone in car can do something reckless and or malacious with little consequence. How many times has someone gotten all wound up in a car near you and "engaged" you in some way? Cut you off, stomped on their brakes in front of you, tried to run you off the road......These actions have less consequence than if you took a shot or a swing at at someone. Bugs me...

That what happens when someone with an anger issue sees their car as just one big, motorized suit of armor. I think it's gotten worse since cars have had all the safety equipment and design. A person can feel like they can use their car as a weapon with little physical consequence to themselves because the air bag, crumple zone, and safety cage will prevent them from getting injured. A foolish perception, but there it is.

 

[thexrayboy]

Very important rule of life...Don't reach arm into vehicle with engine running to remove key. This could lead to being dragged by said vehicle.

Seriously, I would not reach into a vehicle unless there was simply no other choice in the matter. I am sure that some circumstances exist where this is
the correct course of action but they would be few and far between. A better option would be to try and open the vehicle door instead. If the door is unlocked and you can gain entry to the vehicle you have more and better options. It's easy to become a hood ornament when your arm is inside and your body is outside. Change that parameter so that your body is inside with your arm and then turn off the engine.

It's easy to Monday morning quarteback these things but if people put some thought into "what would I do in this scenario" they might be able to react in a safer manner.

In any course the woman driving the car should get a proper legal pranging for this one.

 

[Double Naught Spy]

deadly force to stop road rage?

This wasn't road rage.

 

[gunsmith]

some skell

tried to steal my friends cash from his shirt pocket while he was waiting for the light to change (car window open) he grabbed his arm and stepped on the gas.


he dragged the skell half a block and let go.

Don't mess with NY cabbies!

 

[Ryder]

Paramadic was a moron. Shooting a driver to protect him from being dragged might be a defensible action in court but it won't guarantee his safety. Odds are good it will make things worse because a driver who is shot at will push the gas pedal through the firewall. There's no such thing as enough speed when you've been shot at in a car!