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deadly force

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by teamglock, Aug 16, 2008.

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  1. teamglock

    teamglock Member

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    I need some answers....

    If you walking down the street with you dog and you have a cc
    and you total legal and say a dog come running up to you and your dog and starts fighting .... can you use deadly force.


    i live in south fl where most dog owners don't leash there dogs

    even when there are sign's
     
  2. dogmush

    dogmush Member

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    What my lawyer friend told me whan I asked: "You grabbed your dog to get it away and the other dog attacked you, so you shot it"

    Legaly in FL as best I can tell: Your dog is your property, and you can't shoot to protect property. Most towns in FL have some version of "No Shooting in Town" Laws.

    Morally, (my own): Dogs often fight without killing each other, so I think one would have some moral imperitive to at least try to seperate the dogs without killing the agressor. They're probably not trying to kill your dog.

    Practicly: Put the shoe on the other foot; if your dog got away from you and when you caught up with him, he was shot and there was a man standing over him with a drawn gun, what would you do? In many places shooting someones dog is a good way to get shot.

    Obviuosly every situation is different, my response to an average dog-fight is not to shoot one of the dogs. I'd try to break it up non leathaly first.
     
  3. csmkersh

    csmkersh Member

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    It's going to depend on your State's laws. In mine, I can shoot a dog attaching livestock but not not another dog - legally, that is.

    I've had a Rott charge me twice (same dog) and both times he got a face full of pepper spray with a .357 as follow-up if needed. It wasn't.


     
  4. 545days

    545days Member

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    This is a thread that probably won't end well... However I will take a stab at an answer.

    In most places, dogs are legally considered property. They are not family members. Therefore ask yourself this: "If my bicycle was locked in a bike rack, and a large dog attacked it; can I legally shoot the dog?" It doesn't sound so clear cut anymore does it?

    Other considerations are the relative size, age, health and value of the dogs. Shooting a seven pound poodle that dares to attack your 150 pound rottie probably won't look good either. Then there are other factors: Are you in the country or the city? Does the other dog have a collar? Is the other dog's owner standing nearby? Are you in the middle of a crowd, endangering others? Have you had run-ins with the dogs owner in the past? How have your local police treated similar incidents in the past? Is the local DA pro or anti gun? Do you really want to go to court and spend a lot of money to prove that you were right?

    Since the standard for use of a gun in most places is "fear for your life" a legal gun permit holder who wishes to stay out of jail and civil court is should probably try and physically break up the dog fight first.

    I am not a lawyer. Your mileage may vary. Feel free to tell me that you once shot a dog and had no trouble.
     
  5. teamglock

    teamglock Member

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    ok you all have been helpfull now

    what is the best hand-held pepper spray you can buy any hints?
     
  6. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    I've used the foxx labs pepper spray on one occasion with very good results, but it was not on a dog. the Foxx brand is good but their probably is some better stuff out there.
     
  7. teamglock

    teamglock Member

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    any other?

    can i buy mace
     
  8. Lewis130

    Lewis130 Member

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    You could just give the offending dog a good kick and it'll probably scarper or attck you. If the later, fire at will. When I was young, a German Sheppard attacked my dog. My Dad just waved a stick at it and it fled, so threat of human force might well be sufficient.
     
  9. FCFC

    FCFC Has Never Owned a Gun

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    Excellent analysis, 545days.

    Another factor at play in shooting a dog is that they are hard to shoot. This may cause one to fire more than once.

    More gunshots = more complexity, more trouble.

    Guns are not good tools for dog on dog attacks.
     
  10. csmkersh

    csmkersh Member

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    True, but other than pepper spray, which may or may not be legal is some states, it may be the only option for a person out for a walk with their dog.

    If you are at home and have quick access to a hose and water, that often is a very effective and non-lethal way to end the dog fight. But this is not the scenario the OP presented.

     
  11. FCFC

    FCFC Has Never Owned a Gun

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    "...may be the only option"??????

    Puh-leeeze....that's rather limited thinking...

    There've got to be some other options...

    Of course, having a gun first bias obstructs the seeking out of those other options.... :banghead:

    Guns are not good tools for dog on dog attacks. Find something else for that problem. Else, it will be an expensive dog walk.
     
  12. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    One of the reasons I got my CCW here was because of several rather nasty neighborhood dogs. They have already gotten loose and killed several other neighborhood pets.

    I carry a 9 round 22 revolver loaded with CCI Stingers (with a "NastyNose treatment). If I can't "yell them off", I'll give 1 shot straight into the ground to see if the noise gets their attention. If not ....

    Of course, I may not have enough time for all the options above as my dog (golden retriever) is only on a 6 foot leash. I believe that is close enough to consider the attacking dog a threat to me as well.

    Up until the CCW I carried a stun gun.
     
  13. Low-Sci

    Low-Sci Member

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    Legal or not, shooting an unleashed dog seems like a serious overreaction in most scenarios that I can dream up. Of course there are exceptions, but for the most part it seems like a better idea to yell at it and give it a kick rather than mow it down. Whether it's legal for you to do it or not, it'll cause you a lot more headache than it's worth.

    If it attacks you, that's another story. And it's still going to be a hassle.
     
  14. Old Grump

    Old Grump Member

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    Rule of thumb

    If it doesn't have a collar and its attacking or threatening to attack consider it a feral animal and shoot. My nephew got bit by the neighbors dog and the resultant infection cost me 585 dollars. That dog had bitten several other people and it bit a couple more after biting my nephew. They had to put it down because their insurance company was going to cancel their home owners policy. Instead of just digging into their pockets like I did in order to stay on good terms with the neighbors they reported the bite. It was a small beagle. A Great Dane, German Shepherd, or any other sizable animal can cause a lot of damage with just a couple of bites and I don't think we should have to wait till we have chunks of meat ripped from us before we are allowed to defend ourselves. A mastiff in Madison Wisconsin unleashed and away from its owner attacked and killed a dog in a park yesterday and it wasn't supposed to be off leash or unmuzzled because of previous incidents with that dog. You have no idea what is going to happen when a dog comes at you in a threatening manner. I am too old to get chewed on and I'll pay the fine before I'll let a dog do that to me. None of my dogs do that. The 2 that did 25 years ago belonged to my wife, they were put down the same afternoon.
     
  15. csmkersh

    csmkersh Member

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    Then present some rather than being your normal anti-gun, anti-self defense and anti-defense of property self.
     
  16. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    You can only typically use deadly force in certain situations that are defined by state law. Typically it is only allowed in defense of life. A few states allow you to defend at least some property with deadly force. A dog is property.

    Now if the dog attacked you, that is a different story. Most states if you shot a dog that had attacked you, you would probably be OK if the attack was such that you might have been seriously injured or killed. Although some areas may give you some grief about it, and you might get charged with something, and end up having to pay a lawyer to deal with it. This situation is highly dependent on facts you have not provided.
     
  17. ilbob

    ilbob Member

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    warning shots are a real bad idea. Dogs are very fast and you may only get one shot. A 22 is not an appropriate caliber for shooting a dog large enough to do any damage to you.

    You should always report stray dogs to the local animal control people. If they seem aggressive call 911. If nothing else, it is a record of a nuisance animal.
     
  18. Griz44

    Griz44 Member

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    This will probably hack a few off here, but it is the way I see things. The years long rash of kids and pets being killed by specific breeds would mean that some breeds, Pits, Rotties, etc... should be handled differently than a po'd poodle. A Lab or Collie probably just needs a good loud yell or a kick and off they go. A Pit on the other hand will not yield no matter what you do to it. This I know from first hand experience and have the scars to prove it. The retriever gets off the hook for bad behavior, the Pit gets a bullet-no hesitation. Dogs also become braver with numbers. A lone dog will almost always back off, a pack rarely does. The right answer to the question probably does not exist. I will not wind up back in the ER getting dog bites sewn up, I'll shoot first to protect me and my dog. But here in Texas, deadly force is OK to protect your property.
     
  19. Happiness Is A Warm Gun

    Happiness Is A Warm Gun Member

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    Warning Shots are ALMOST ALWAYS a horrible idea.
    Warning Shots into the ground (asphalt, concrete, gravel) are an ESPECIALLY BAD idea.

    When I was in Iraq a warning shot skipped off the ground and struck a non-combatant; a 9 year old girl. Imagine the fun of doing patrols in that neighbor after that.

    Don't fire warning shots.

    There are only two possibilities:

    If a situation DOES requires deadly force then it requires deadly force; aim center mass and shoot to stop threat. To not use deadly force in a situation that require it, endangers yourself and other innocent persons.

    If a situation DOESN'T require deadly force then it doesn't require deadly force. To use deadly force only endangers other people.
     
  20. teamglock

    teamglock Member

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    has anyone ever shot a dog ......


    well i had to one time .. and trust me they don't go down fast.... dogs are
    so strong.... i had a wild pit come on my land when i live in a very ruel area... and he started growing and semi lunging towards me

    so i used water didn't work i used sticks didn't work
    used a loud siren didn't work ........ i had to shoot him with a .45 acp and i shot him in his back leg i thought i was watching a movie the bullet really did fall out of him the shell was laying next to the dog and i was close and very dead on....... it took 7 Rd's to finally take him down.......


    sorry about typo's
     
  21. mgkdrgn

    mgkdrgn Member

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    "Warning Shots are ALMOST ALWAYS a horrible idea."

    Agreed ... and I likely won't have time for one anyway. My dog is always on a 6 foot lead when we are out, with me on the other end.

    That being the case, I consider any other dog actively my dog to be attacking me, and will be dealt with accordingly without hesitation.
     
  22. ByAnyMeans

    ByAnyMeans Member

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    GRIZ44:

    I have seen pits waved off by the hand before, trust me it was my hand. I have also gotten stitches in the ER due to dogbites but it was once a Retriever and the second time it was a Vizla. You may feel it's okay to prejudge a dog and fire "one" because of the breed but understand they have an owner and they may "return fire to protect their property" just as you have the right to do. All i'm saying is if it is one of my or my family American Pitbull Terriers you shoot I will try my best to unload a magazines worth in your direction to "stop the threat" with "no hesitation.'
     
  23. FCFC

    FCFC Has Never Owned a Gun

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    See, that's the thing....there are so many reasons why a gun is not a good tool for dogfights (or most dog incidents).

    I'm sure there are a few exceptions, but the rule should be:

    Don't bring a gun to a dogfight.


    I hope to God I never have to read a news account about two dogwalkers who end up shooting each other over a dogfight. That would be a big waste...
     
  24. Hypnogator

    Hypnogator Member

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    In which case, the Judge will say "Guilty of murder" and you'll spend a l-o-n-g time in real close association with a big guy named "Bubba" who thinks you look cute! :what::eek::uhoh:

    It has been pointed out several times in this thread, dogs are property. Much as we love them as pets, they aren't human. You may shoot a dog that is attacking you or your dog. You may not shoot a human who is attacking your dog! Bear in mind, though, that if you do choose to shoot, you may be subject to sanctions for discharging a firearm, reckless endangerment, disturbing the peace, etc.
     
  25. ByAnyMeans

    ByAnyMeans Member

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    Hypnogator sorry won't happen. If a person fires a gun even at my dog and i return fire i'm fine. If the dog is right next to me there is no way to tell that he was'nt attempting to shoot me and if my dog is in my yard than I'm stopping the person who I resoanably(sp?) think is taking them out in order to commit a home invasion. If he can shoot my dog because he is protecting his property (his dog) then I can shoot him to protect my property(my dog and me). Good for the goose is good for the gander.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2008
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