Deciding the fate of the FN 5.7x28

[DT Guy]

Once you use non-AP ammo, I just don't think it can carry its weight. It was originally touted as a light, controllable round that can still penetrate (the military's primary goal, remember, is to remove an enemy from the fight; eventual expiration is immaterial) on the modern battlefield. Once it can't penetrate, it becomes pretty pointless, IMHO.


Larry

 

[Maverick223]

And if you read my full post I did say controllability is the issue.

...and if you read mine I said it (the P90) is very controllable. :banghead:

The P90 IS BETTER than a PISTOL...which is the alternative for the combat PDW...this is not necessarily the case with the non-FA PS-90.

 

[MetalHead]

I really don't know what to make of it, however if it disapeared tomarrow something even weirder would take it's place.

 

[cz85cmbt]

The concept as laid out in trials for a PDW by the U.S. military is convoluted and the weapon is not needed. What governments now use it for fills the roll of smg on swat teams or the equivalent there of. I think even with a 50 round mag and low recoil to create around sustained or burst fire full auto is not worth it because the application of auto fire is limited in anything but LMG's. This is what I have been getting at. You can say that full auto fire has a ton more merit than what I'm giving it but in the end we are still agreeing that the p90 has excellent control for it's weapon class. Where we disagree is that I do not think this control is good enough to use outside of making 10 feet of wall very uninhabitable. Semi auto fire is more effective in almost every other scenario.

 

[mljdeckard]

If I knew I had to confront a target in a car but I wouldn't be able to just use a rifle, it might have a use. Other than that, it's a brilliant solution looking for a problem.

 

[Maverick223]

Where we disagree is that I do not think this control is good enough to use outside of making 10 feet of wall very uninhabitable. Semi auto fire is more effective in almost every other scenario.

The uses are limited, but I think (in the P90 only) that it is a little better than a pistol as it affords better range, better firepower (due only to FA capability), and retains a light, compact package. If a soldier normally would carry a rifle, this is not a good replacement. Agreed?

If I knew I had to confront a target in a car but I wouldn't be able to just use a rifle, it might have a use. Other than that, it's a brilliant solution looking for a problem.

Agreed, however I would choose it over a pistol in nearly any instance (especially considering the use of FMJ in 9mm pistols for military service).

 

[HGUNHNTR]

Most of this commentary has nothing to do with the commercial round whatsoever. Who care what black ops, high speed operators are using it for. I doubt if too many of you commenting on its full auto capability will ever get closer than a video game to a full auto 5.7 The OP's question seems much more oriented toward civilian use of the 5.7 round.

 

[Uncle Mike]

The OP's question seems much more oriented toward civilian use of the 5.7 round.

Right!...now for the love of tomato soup, someone, please, start up a line for this little jewel in a nice bolt gun!

I know, the 221 fireball didn't make it either!

I think the 5.7 would make a great little vermin round, more so than the 22MAG...but wait....IF, the 5.7 took off, then the 5mm Magnum Rimfire may not resurrect from the dead....and we wouldn't want to interfere with that!

The ballistics of the 5.7 are better than the 22MAG, and it is rimless, uses better bullets, reloadable, centerfire(which may be a problem in some arenas) and is prettier than the ol' 22MAG. hehehehe

I had every intention of building one...but finding a barrel, that was not a custom drill and chamber, since finding chamber drills and reamers for this thing is next to impossible! Shucks, just the barrel would be more than a good production piece.

 

[CornCod]

PDW

I think the PDW concept is here to stay in at least some form. As a weapon for rear area troops in the mold of the M-1 Carbine, very short rifles in 5.7 might fill the niche. Why commando teams and SWAT outfits are buying FN P90's, that I find puzzling.

 

[Shadow Man]

Why commando teams and SWAT outfits are buying FN P90's, that I find puzzling.

The only real-world user of this weapon platform/round that I know of is the US. Secret Service. Why, I don't have a clue, but I have heard that they use the P90. To claim that some HS-LD unit uses them is comical, to say the least. The P90 and 5.7x28mm round does nothing that a 10"bbl M-4 cannot already do, and do better. Yes, it may have a shorter OAL, but name me one realistic scenario where you will complain that a 10"bbl M-4 is "too long". Not to mention that the P90's ridiculously short OAL is uncomfortable. The crying shame is that FN Herstal made this little novelty item in lieu of the BRG-15, a 15.5mm machine gun of incredible potential and power.

Personally, I find this round a waste of brass, powder, and copper...a gimmick round that does nothing spectacular, only a few things moderately well, and can't begin to accomplish a whole lot of other things successful rounds already do.

 

[Silvanus]

Why do so many elite police and military units use the 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 calibers when they are useless? I always find it funny that so many people talk about these rounds (mostly negative comments) thinking they somehow know better than the experts actually using them... FN and H&K are not exactly known for producing stupid and pointless LE and military products...

 

[Mags]

What does the 5.7 do the 5.56 cant? Didn't everyone else on this board determine the 5.56 to be puny and unacceptable for our troops to shoot at drug crazed jihaadist with? So why is the 5.7 different it aint 7.62x51?

 

[Ruggles]

And yet the little 5.7 and it's platforms keeps trucking along. I say it's future is safe. It like every other caliber has it's strengths and weaknesses. Never understood why it is bashed so much.

"What does the 5.7 do the 5.56 cant?"

Higher ammo capacity
Carbine/Pistol compatibility
Lower recoil
Lighter/Smaller ammo
Fired from a 16" barrel on a platform that is less than 27" in overall length

That is about it.

 

[Maverick223]

Right!...now for the love of tomato soup, someone, please, start up a line for this little jewel in a nice bolt gun!

That is the only useful civilian use that I can see for the round...good luck in finding/building one.

The only real-world user of this weapon platform/round that I know of is the US. Secret Service. Why, I don't have a clue...

Size is everything for them, as they generally must have good firepower but keep in concealed. I can think of no better platform for this use (though the HK PDW should do well, and the Uzi did pretty good). Also keep in mind that the Secret Service can use expanding type ammunition which greatly bolsters the terminal ballistics of nearly any round.

 

[Shadow Man]

Mags, the 5.56x45mm is an acceptable round with the right loading and barrel length, I just think that personally it is being asked too much of. Instant knock-down, 500yd range and lethality, shorter and shorter OAL...its to be expected that the more you modify the weapon system from its original design parameters the more complaints you will pick up. The 5.7x28mm is different, in my opinion, because it can't accomplish what the most modified 5.56x45mm platform can. If given the choice between a full-sized P90/PS90 and a 10"bbl M-4, I would take the M-4 any day.

Why do so many elite police and military units use the 5.7x28 and 4.6x30 calibers when they are useless?

Name me one "elite" military unit that uses either the P90 or the MP-7A1. Same with an "elite" police unit. (big-city SWAT, FBI HRT, etc.)

I always find it funny that so many people talk about these rounds (mostly negative comments) thinking they somehow know better than the experts actually using them...

The experts don't use them...that's how I can talk trash about them and not feel any guilt. I find it hilarious that people always think they know what the HS-LD boys are using...because that's what the latest vid game uses Now, I don't necessarily mean you, Silvanus...so don't get all hot and bothered.

FN and H&K are not exactly known for producing stupid and pointless LE and military products...

H&K PSG-1 was a flop. Too expensive and heavy.
H&K MP7A1 was a flop. Too limited a role, couldn't do anything that another platform already could.
H&K MP5/10 was a flop. Too few users.
H&K UCP was a flop. You could be more effective firing a .22 hollowpoint at someone.
H&K MSG-90 was a flop. Not accurate/reliable enough.
H&K XM-8 was a flop. Need I say why?


FN-H P90 is flopping. Not a big following outside of vid game and movie producers, where the laws of real life do not apply.
FN-H Minimi is doing a swan dive. The LMG of choice for many years, it is now falling out of favor with its users for more advanced weapons, like the MK-46. I wonder if that is because FN-H made it too complicated? Hmm...
FN-H BRG-15. Fantastic weapon platform, would have replaced the M-2 en-masse, but was dropped because the P90 was considered to have more appeal to the market. Whoops.
FN-H SCAR-L & SCAR-H. This wapons system, years in the making, was surpassed by a grass-roots company who built their system in 3 months, and theirs came out more reliable, ergonomic, and more durable.

Size is everything for them, as they generally must have good firepower but keep in concealed. I can think of no better platform for this use (though the HK PDW should do well, and the Uzi did pretty good). Also keep in mind that the Secret Service can use expanding type ammunition which greatly bolsters the terminal ballistics of nearly any round.

Ah. True enough Maverick. Point noted, thank you sir.

 

[mljdeckard]

Higher capacity than what?

The pistol it shoots through has lower velocity and less effectiveness than the rifle. Notice all the other pistol makers have jumped up to design new guns to shoot that round, it's so effective.

I suppose the recoil is low enough to solve all those problems that people have been complaining about from M-4-pattern weapons. It's not so low as to be non-existent or to make you think that that the weapon isn't firing at all, which gives you ZERO improvement in reality.

How much ammo are you needing to carry for it, and how far?

Silvanus, the European philosophy for the application is much different than the American one. We have pretty much abandoned the sub-machine gun for the rifle. We have decided that in-between cartridges don't really solve any problems.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Right!...now for the love of tomato soup, someone, please, start up a line for this little jewel in a nice bolt gun!

You'd be better served with .22 Hornet.

You might even get lucky and find a recently discontinued Taurus Raging Hornet armor-piercing assault revolver.

 

[Ruggles]

"Higher capacity than what?

The pistol it shoots through has lower velocity and less effectiveness than the rifle. Notice all the other pistol makers have jumped up to design new guns to shoot that round, it's so effective.

I suppose the recoil is low enough to solve all those problems that people have been complaining about from M-4-pattern weapons. It's not so low as to be non-existent or to make you think that that the weapon isn't firing at all, which gives you ZERO improvement in reality.

How much ammo are you needing to carry for it, and how far?

Silvanus, the European philosophy for the application is much different than the American one. We have pretty much abandoned the sub-machine gun for the rifle. We have decided that in-between cartridges don't really solve any problems."

I listed all the thing the 5.7 does "better" than the 5.56mm. Nothing but facts. Not trying to say the 5.7 is better than the 5.56 (overall I do not think it is) but facts are facts.

FN is one of if not the premium military arms maker in the world. Not really sure why folks on the internet assume they do not know what they are doing. They know more about firearms design than the doubters on these internet forums. I also think calling the PS90 a flop is inaccurate at best. It seems to be doing pretty well to me.

To each their own I guess. It seems the Secret Service (one of the best funded and trained LE details in the world) have faith in the round and platform. That rings with more truth to me that internet commandos do.

As for recoil:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f76wGxg3fzw

Do that with a stock M4 or other 5.56 platform. Yeah the recoil is less.

 

[CapnMac]

What, not one person making the obvious (at least to me) comparison to .218bee?

Always thought that would be a cool PDW round. But, it might be a bit tough to make a corporate business case since the round would not be proprietary and all . . .

 

[Shadow Man]

I also think calling the PS90 a flop is inaccurate at best.

When the P90 (or PS90, if you so choose) is adopted en-masse like FN's Minimi (M249) or MAG (M240) by armies across the world, then the P90 won't have been a flop for a Military/LE weapon. Can't argue with the fact that FN is a huge, huge manufacturer...my only point was to show that they have not been entirely successful.

To each their own I guess. It seems the Secret Service (one of the best funded and trained LE details in the world) have faith in the round and platform. That rings with more truth to me that internet commandos do.

I wouldn't exactly call the Secret Service LE...but I'll let that slide. However, if you read post #35, I mentioned the Secret Service by name as the sole user of the platform I could think of. Then, Maverick223 came along and explained why.

But yeah...go back to calling me an internet commando. Don't let me presenting facts based upon years of real-world experience get in the way of your name calling. :banghead:

 

[mljdeckard]

But you didn't answer any questions. There are extended-capacity magazines for an AR, but they aren't very popular because no one sees problems a hundred-round drum solves that 30 round magazines can't solve.

The round, when fired from a pistol, isn't nearly as effective as a P90 carbine OR an M-4.

The lower recoil isn't a real-world improvement.

You gave no facts of any kind. You need to learn the difference between fact and opinion.

 

[Ruggles]

Simple business sense would tell you the fact that the PS90, P90 and Five seveN are still in large scale production would say it is a success. It is also in use a by a large number of military units and LE agencies. If you do not like it then that is fine but senseless and fact less bashing is pointless.

 

[mljdeckard]

What numbers? What units?

 

[Ruggles]

"But you didn't answer any questions. There are extended-capacity magazines for an AR, but they aren't very popular because no one sees problems a hundred-round drum solves that 30 round magazines can't solve.

The round, when fired from a pistol, isn't nearly as effective as a P90 carbine OR an M-4.

The lower recoil isn't a real-world improvement.

You gave no facts of any kind. You need to learn the difference between fact and opinion."

1. 50 round magazine is not unwieldy on a P90, a 100 rd mag on a AR is which is why no one uses 100 rd mags on a AR. To say no one uses 100rd mags on a AR because they solve no more issue than a 30 rd mags is silly. That would saying no one feels to need to carry extra mags for the AR because 1 is enough.

2. Never said the Five seveN was as effective as a carbine (not many handguns are), it is effective none the less. Sadly proven in the real world recently.

3. Lower recoil is always a good thing, you must not shoot much.

4. Show one thing I listed that is not fact, just one when comparing the 5.7 vs the 5.56:

Higher ammo capacity
Carbine/Pistol compatibility
Lower recoil
Lighter/Smaller ammo
Fired from a 16" barrel on a platform that is less than 27" in overall length

Waiting.....

 

[Shadow Man]

Simple business sense would tell you the fact that the PS90, P90 and Five seveN are still in large scale production would say it is a success.

So is the Mini-14...and according to that idea, because the Ford Pinto had a run of ten years, that made it successful?

It is also in use a by a large number of military units and LE agencies.

Once again: name them. Other than the US. Secret Service (which I mentioned back in post #35) I don't know of one.

If you do not like it then that is fine but senseless and fact less bashing is pointless.

You're right, I'm not a fan of the platform or round...but senseless and fact less bashing? Hardly. I've had a few hours (total, over a few days) of experience with the thing...but that assuredly does not make me qualified to talk about it.