Deciding the fate of the FN 5.7x28
- Thread starter cz85cmbt
- Start date
- Status
mljdeckard
Member
You will not in your entire lifetime, shoot as much as I did before I was 21.
There are 100 round magazines for ARs. We just don't use them.
Pistol and carbine compatability is not an advantage when neither weapon is as effective as a full-size pistol or a full-size rifle.
Low recoil is not no recoil. You still have to learn to shoot with recoil. There is no real-world difference.
It's bigger than pistol ammo. It's smaller than 5.56 ammo, but it has shorter range and reduced power. No advantage.
There are 100 round magazines for ARs. We just don't use them.
Pistol and carbine compatability is not an advantage when neither weapon is as effective as a full-size pistol or a full-size rifle.
Low recoil is not no recoil. You still have to learn to shoot with recoil. There is no real-world difference.
It's bigger than pistol ammo. It's smaller than 5.56 ammo, but it has shorter range and reduced power. No advantage.
mljdeckard
Member
And "Look it up yourself" is not an answer.
Silvanus, companies make crap all the time. Bull pups, the .500 smith and wesson, the .17 machII. All these thing and more were created because we are a consumer society and the companies making them know if they toss some super cool new features out there and have magazines like guns and ammo write up a great article people will buy it. By the way guns and ammo is one big advertisement, they never..... ever have a bad review of ANYTHING, because the people they write about buy ad space. The Experts don't use the 5.7. The p90 mostly is used by retarded overseas swat forces. FN has been trying to hock the POS since the early 90's. No armed forces uses it as a PDW. After the assault weapons ban died FN saw it could finally make some dough in the satate by selling this %*@* commercially, and thanks to people who say, "hey I read about experts using it. They must have chosen it." Most of the time Bureaucrats that are part of the industrial military complex get to choose what troops use. I'm tired of ranting.
My post did refer to more of the round's commercial application rather than its military application. Most people buy the pistol (the 5.7) which hits .22mag rifle velocity. The p90 carbine is rarely found and is very expensive. As a defensive round I find it to be a poor choice flat out IN A HAND GUN, in a carbine there are a ton of other options for defense purposes. The only thing I see the FN 5.7 being good for is a varmint type cartridge, but there is a lot of competition. If it is quit out of a 16-20" barrel a more conventional semiauto sporter might sell well, where as the .22 hornet cannot be put into a semi auto design. Say a rifle that looked lit a 10/22 but fired the 5.7 and retailed from 500-650, that has a chance of selling.
My post did refer to more of the round's commercial application rather than its military application. Most people buy the pistol (the 5.7) which hits .22mag rifle velocity. The p90 carbine is rarely found and is very expensive. As a defensive round I find it to be a poor choice flat out IN A HAND GUN, in a carbine there are a ton of other options for defense purposes. The only thing I see the FN 5.7 being good for is a varmint type cartridge, but there is a lot of competition. If it is quit out of a 16-20" barrel a more conventional semiauto sporter might sell well, where as the .22 hornet cannot be put into a semi auto design. Say a rifle that looked lit a 10/22 but fired the 5.7 and retailed from 500-650, that has a chance of selling.
Shadow Man
Member
Okay, I was unaware of those users: I stand (sit) corrected.
:yawn: Last time I checked, it was the end user, not the designer, who decided the usefullness of a system. Congrats on having a sweet job: (I take it you design weapons? Dunno here...) I'd love to design weapons...but don't get all upset when someone doesn't like your creation. I don't get upset when a CO thinks I didn't clear a building fast enough, I just do it again and again until I get it right.
:yawn: Last time I checked, it was the end user, not the designer, who decided the usefullness of a system. Congrats on having a sweet job: (I take it you design weapons? Dunno here...) I'd love to design weapons...but don't get all upset when someone doesn't like your creation. I don't get upset when a CO thinks I didn't clear a building fast enough, I just do it again and again until I get it right.
Quote:
Simple business sense would tell you the fact that the PS90, P90 and Five seveN are still in large scale production would say it is a success.
So is the Mini-14...and according to that idea, because the Ford Pinto had a run of ten years, that made it successful?
Quote:
It is also in use a by a large number of military units and LE agencies.
Once again: name them. Other than the US. Secret Service (which I mentioned back in post #35) I don't know of one.
Quote:
If you do not like it then that is fine but senseless and fact less bashing is pointless.
You're right, I'm not a fan of the platform or round...but senseless and fact less bashing? Hardly. I've had a few hours (total, over a few days) of experience with the thing...but that assuredly does not make me qualified to talk about it.
The Mini 14 has was introduced in 1974, still in production. Yeah I would call that a slight business success.
The Pinto was in production for a decade but is no longer because it was not successful longterm as a business product.
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
Google the use like I sated in my earlier post.
Your opinion is just that your opinion worth no more or no less than any other unknown poster on the internet. I put my faith in documented facts or pinions from published "experts" not internet fodder. How much of your hands on experience with the round or platform does not included shooting non reactive targets?
Simple business sense would tell you the fact that the PS90, P90 and Five seveN are still in large scale production would say it is a success.
So is the Mini-14...and according to that idea, because the Ford Pinto had a run of ten years, that made it successful?
Quote:
It is also in use a by a large number of military units and LE agencies.
Once again: name them. Other than the US. Secret Service (which I mentioned back in post #35) I don't know of one.
Quote:
If you do not like it then that is fine but senseless and fact less bashing is pointless.
You're right, I'm not a fan of the platform or round...but senseless and fact less bashing? Hardly. I've had a few hours (total, over a few days) of experience with the thing...but that assuredly does not make me qualified to talk about it.
The Mini 14 has was introduced in 1974, still in production. Yeah I would call that a slight business success.
The Pinto was in production for a decade but is no longer because it was not successful longterm as a business product.
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
Google the use like I sated in my earlier post.
Your opinion is just that your opinion worth no more or no less than any other unknown poster on the internet. I put my faith in documented facts or pinions from published "experts" not internet fodder. How much of your hands on experience with the round or platform does not included shooting non reactive targets?
Shadow Man
Member
If business success now equals real world success...all I helped you prove was that marginal systems can, and have been, produced for extended periods...and that in no way makes them good.
As for non-reactive vs. reactive targets...the ballistics gelatin was enough for us. I didn't feel the need to strap on my rattle and go hunt someone down to tell me the round sucked...
"You will not in your entire lifetime, shoot as much as I did before I was 21."
Typical internet commando statement.
There are 100 round magazines for ARs. We just don't use them.
Because they are unwieldy as can be like I said. You do carry extra mags though right? Why?
Pistol and carbine compatability is not an advantage when neither weapon is as effective as a full-size pistol or a full-size rifle.
Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one of the thing. Simple fact.
Low recoil is not no recoil. You still have to learn to shoot with recoil. There is no real-world difference.
Again. Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one more of the things. Simple fact.
It's bigger than pistol ammo. It's smaller than 5.56 ammo, but it has shorter range and reduced power. No advantage.
Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one more of the things. Simple fact.
Appears to me that you asked a question, did not like the factual answer so you resort to this. I answered your question with simple undisputed facts get over it already.
__________________
Typical internet commando statement.
There are 100 round magazines for ARs. We just don't use them.
Because they are unwieldy as can be like I said. You do carry extra mags though right? Why?
Pistol and carbine compatability is not an advantage when neither weapon is as effective as a full-size pistol or a full-size rifle.
Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one of the thing. Simple fact.
Low recoil is not no recoil. You still have to learn to shoot with recoil. There is no real-world difference.
Again. Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one more of the things. Simple fact.
It's bigger than pistol ammo. It's smaller than 5.56 ammo, but it has shorter range and reduced power. No advantage.
Like I said all platforms and calibers have strengths and weaknesses. You asked what the 5.7 can do the 5.56 can not. This is one more of the things. Simple fact.
Appears to me that you asked a question, did not like the factual answer so you resort to this. I answered your question with simple undisputed facts get over it already.
__________________
Thanks for helping me prove my point.
If business success now equals real world success...all I helped you prove was that marginal systems can, and have been, produced for extended periods...and that in no way makes them good.
You called the P90 a flop, then the Mini 14 a flop. You clearly have very little understanding of business. Neither has been a failure in any sense of the word for FN or Ruger.
As for non-reactive vs. reactive targets...the ballistics gelatin was enough for us. I didn't feel the need to strap on my rattle and go hunt someone down to tell me the round sucked...
Real world results do not seem to match your ballistic test, not to mention there are a number of posted ballistic results showing the effectiveness of the round. I will stick with real world results either way.
mljdeckard
Member
There are AR pistols as well.
My stating how much I have shot in my lifetime holds no more or less credibility than your claim that I must not shoot much.
The last thing I will say before I ignore this thread, is that I have actually killed things with the 5.7 round. My brother in law has both the pistol and the carbine. We spent a whole weekend shooting jackrabbits, marmots, and we even got lucky with a coyote.
This round holds no range or ballistic advantage over a .22 magnum, unless you are shooting a target at close range that is wearing body armor WITHOUT trauma plates.
My stating how much I have shot in my lifetime holds no more or less credibility than your claim that I must not shoot much.
The last thing I will say before I ignore this thread, is that I have actually killed things with the 5.7 round. My brother in law has both the pistol and the carbine. We spent a whole weekend shooting jackrabbits, marmots, and we even got lucky with a coyote.
This round holds no range or ballistic advantage over a .22 magnum, unless you are shooting a target at close range that is wearing body armor WITHOUT trauma plates.
There are AR pistols as well.
Yeah those are really handy in a belt holster huh?
My stating how much I have shot in my lifetime holds no more or less credibility than your claim that I must not shoot much.
Which is to say none.
The last thing I will say before I ignore this thread, is that I have actually killed things with the 5.7 round. My brother in law has both the pistol and the carbine. We spent a whole weekend shooting jackrabbits, marmots, and we even got lucky with a coyote.
This round holds no range or ballistic advantage over a .22 magnum, unless you are shooting a target at close range that is wearing body armor WITHOUT trauma plates.
Again real world results against non furry things say differently.
You asked a question I answered it, that all. Let's both move on.
Yeah those are really handy in a belt holster huh?
My stating how much I have shot in my lifetime holds no more or less credibility than your claim that I must not shoot much.
Which is to say none.
The last thing I will say before I ignore this thread, is that I have actually killed things with the 5.7 round. My brother in law has both the pistol and the carbine. We spent a whole weekend shooting jackrabbits, marmots, and we even got lucky with a coyote.
This round holds no range or ballistic advantage over a .22 magnum, unless you are shooting a target at close range that is wearing body armor WITHOUT trauma plates.
Again real world results against non furry things say differently.
You asked a question I answered it, that all. Let's both move on.
Shadow Man
Member
And you clearly have little understanding of a successful Military and LE weapon system. I could give a rats rear end about how business savvy companies are...if their products are designed for M/LE, and suck in those roles, then they flopped.
And as for calling Mljdeckard an "internet commando", I find that laughable. Here is how a typical internet commando conversation goes:
Internet Commando: "The (insert 'wonder' round here) is a fantastic round, all these studies from experts say so!"
Real World End-User: "Well, in my experience, the ('wonder' round) didn't do so hot in our tests."
Internet Commando: "So and so experts said it did! You are full of it, they are right, and here's a list of completely unrelated examples to show how wrong you are!"
Real World End-User: ":sigh:" :banghead:
"Fine. Have a nice day." So there ya go. Have a nice day son.
Ruggles there are only a handful of incidents with the 5.7, not enough to imperically prove anything. And this is a firearms forum not a business forum. The mini 14 blows, always has always will, people still buy it, but that does not make it good. You seem like the type to trust whatever someone in a magazine says, but there are a ton of dumb gun writers, Mike Venturino being my favorite idiot. Yes he write for several periodicals and I do not that does not make him smarter than myself. I've posted some anti 5.7 stuff I'd like to hear your take.
"And you clearly have little understanding of a successful Military and LE weapon system. I could give a rats rear end about how business savvy companies are...if their products are designed for M/LE, and suck in those roles, then they flopped.
And as for calling Mljdeckard an "internet commando", I find that laughable. Here is how a typical internet commando conversation goes:
Internet Commando: "The (insert 'wonder' round here) is a fantastic round, all these studies from experts say so!"
Real World End-User: "Well, in my experience, the ('wonder' round) didn't do so hot in our tests."
Internet Commando: "So and so experts said it did! You are full of it, they are right, and here's a list of completely unrelated examples to show how wrong you are!"
Real World End-User: ":sigh:" "Fine. Have a nice day."
So there ya go. Have a nice day son.
LOL ok "Dad" I will. Like I already posted I am moving on as none of the things I listed that the 5.7 does the 5.56 can not has been proven incorrect. The OP asked about the fate of the 5.7, it will not be decided by any of us so what does it matter what we say anyways.
I own both 5.56 and 5.7 platforms. I favor neither all of the time. Why all the hate for the 5.7 I will never understand. You don't like it then don't buy it or use it but do not post fact less things about it.
And as for calling Mljdeckard an "internet commando", I find that laughable. Here is how a typical internet commando conversation goes:
Internet Commando: "The (insert 'wonder' round here) is a fantastic round, all these studies from experts say so!"
Real World End-User: "Well, in my experience, the ('wonder' round) didn't do so hot in our tests."
Internet Commando: "So and so experts said it did! You are full of it, they are right, and here's a list of completely unrelated examples to show how wrong you are!"
Real World End-User: ":sigh:" "Fine. Have a nice day."
So there ya go. Have a nice day son.
LOL ok "Dad" I will. Like I already posted I am moving on as none of the things I listed that the 5.7 does the 5.56 can not has been proven incorrect. The OP asked about the fate of the 5.7, it will not be decided by any of us so what does it matter what we say anyways.
I own both 5.56 and 5.7 platforms. I favor neither all of the time. Why all the hate for the 5.7 I will never understand. You don't like it then don't buy it or use it but do not post fact less things about it.
Ruggles there are only a handful of incidents with the 5.7, not enough to imperically prove anything. And this is a firearms forum not a business forum. The mini 14 blows, always has always will, people still buy it, but that does not make it good. You seem like the type to trust whatever someone in a magazine says, but there are a ton of dumb gun writers, Mike Venturino being my favorite idiot. Yes he write for several periodicals and I do not that does not make him smarter than myself. I've posted some anti 5.7 stuff I'd like to hear your take.
I think each and every widely used self defense/LE/ Military caliber has numbers of documented incidents where they failed to perform as designed. The 5.7 will as well. Does not mean any of those rounds are ineffective overall.
I also think the 5.7 performed well in Peru at the embassy, and in the local SWAT shooting in Houston years ago. I think Fort Hood showed the devastating effectiveness of the rounds as well. The fact that the elite LE unit in the country has the 5.7 in the arsenal speaks volumes more in favor of it than anything negative posted here. The Secret Service could equip anything in the world, yet they choose to equip the P90 at times. Simple fact.
Every argument made against the 5.7 has been and continues to be made against the 5.56 by those favoring the 6.8 or 7.62. I find those points invalid as well. The same thing back in the 40s about the .30 Carbine. Funny thing is many a US combat Soldier chose the M1 Carbine over the Garand anyways, why? Because the M1 Carbine had areas where it was better than the M1 Garand in. Same with the 5.7 vs the 5.56 IMO.
I will also take what I read in published documented sources over undocumented internet posting with a little more confidence as well. I have been around enough to spot true facts or honest opinion vs macho bravo junk posting like some of those above.
I think each and every widely used self defense/LE/ Military caliber has numbers of documented incidents where they failed to perform as designed. The 5.7 will as well. Does not mean any of those rounds are ineffective overall.
I also think the 5.7 performed well in Peru at the embassy, and in the local SWAT shooting in Houston years ago. I think Fort Hood showed the devastating effectiveness of the rounds as well. The fact that the elite LE unit in the country has the 5.7 in the arsenal speaks volumes more in favor of it than anything negative posted here. The Secret Service could equip anything in the world, yet they choose to equip the P90 at times. Simple fact.
Every argument made against the 5.7 has been and continues to be made against the 5.56 by those favoring the 6.8 or 7.62. I find those points invalid as well. The same thing back in the 40s about the .30 Carbine. Funny thing is many a US combat Soldier chose the M1 Carbine over the Garand anyways, why? Because the M1 Carbine had areas where it was better than the M1 Garand in. Same with the 5.7 vs the 5.56 IMO.
I will also take what I read in published documented sources over undocumented internet posting with a little more confidence as well. I have been around enough to spot true facts or honest opinion vs macho bravo junk posting like some of those above.
Boba Fett
Member
Well, with a quick google search, I did find this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FN_P90#Users
Looks like about 80 different agencies around the world.
I like these especially:
And this:
http://world.guns.ru/smg/smg13-e.htm
Oh and don't forget about these guys too. They use them a lot
I like these especially:
Quote:
Addison police department in Texas (first agency in the country to issue it to patrol cars)
Bryan police department SWAT in Texas
Houston Police Department SWAT in Texas (first local law enforcement agency in the country to use the weapon)
Zapata County sheriff's department in Texas
Ah come on what do those Tejas boys know about firearms?
Houston PD (SWAT) has used them will positive real world results. Quite a bit of heavy gang/drug crime in Houston so I suspect those fellows would not be using something that did not work in the real world. I currently live 1.5 south of Houston because of the "issues" with crime that city now has.
Oh and Stargate SG1 & SG Atlantis were fine shows, not real sure about SG:Universe though. Tell me Amanda Tappings is not that much hotter carrying that P90.........
Quote:
Addison police department in Texas (first agency in the country to issue it to patrol cars)
Bryan police department SWAT in Texas
Houston Police Department SWAT in Texas (first local law enforcement agency in the country to use the weapon)
Zapata County sheriff's department in Texas
Ah come on what do those Tejas boys know about firearms?
Houston PD (SWAT) has used them will positive real world results. Quite a bit of heavy gang/drug crime in Houston so I suspect those fellows would not be using something that did not work in the real world. I currently live 1.5 south of Houston because of the "issues" with crime that city now has.
Oh and Stargate SG1 & SG Atlantis were fine shows, not real sure about SG:Universe though. Tell me Amanda Tappings is not that much hotter carrying that P90.........
Last edited:
W.E.G.
Member
Maverick223
Member
Silvanus
Member
Belgian Special Forces Group, Secret Sevice, GIGN, GIPN, GSG9 and some SEKs, USP (equivalent to your SWAT in my country), KSK, ...
I leave it up to you to google the rest, but some of the units I mentioned are considered among the best in the world. But you know better, right?
And why anybody would call the P90, MP7 and M249 a flop is beyond me... They are in use worldwide and will be for a long time.
And I personally would still consider FN and HK two of the best LE and military arms manufacturers, considering the FAL, FNC, FN2000, P90, G36, HK416, minimi, MAG, G3 and countless others I don't care to list right now.
Last edited:
"Belgian Special Forces Group, Secret Sevice, GIGN, GIPN, GSG9 and some SEKs, USP (equivalent to your SWAT in my country), KSK, ...
I leave it up to you to google the rest, but some of the units I mentioned are considered among the best in the world.
And why anybody would call the P90, MP7 and M249 a flop is beyond me... They are in use worldwide and will be for a long time.
And I personally would still consider FN and HK two of the best LE and military arms manufacturers, considering the FAL, FNC, FN2000, P90, G36, HK416, minimi, MAG, G3 and countless others I don't care to list right now."
Stop with your common sense and facts you are going to confuse some people who "know better"
I leave it up to you to google the rest, but some of the units I mentioned are considered among the best in the world.
And why anybody would call the P90, MP7 and M249 a flop is beyond me... They are in use worldwide and will be for a long time.
And I personally would still consider FN and HK two of the best LE and military arms manufacturers, considering the FAL, FNC, FN2000, P90, G36, HK416, minimi, MAG, G3 and countless others I don't care to list right now."
Stop with your common sense and facts you are going to confuse some people who "know better"
Wanta B
Member
PDWs most certainly have their place.Most folks have no use for them but for those that do,there is no better tool in the world.NONE.
MP5-10 and Glock M-20...Flat out putdown the lead to AWESOME effect.Again most folks do not need them but those that do...10mm 180gr,out of 14" barrel...ever see what it does to tissue at 100m compared to SS109 from same 14"?
AR pistols are mostly a curiousity,however,they do get some realworld use.As do AK pistols...with a stock see Krinkov.
Beta mags...Apart from Knob Creek? I have seen very limited use of 40rnd mags but that is about it.
I have no use for the cartridge myself and I do not like it,OH WELL.Perhaps someone does and if it works for them awesome. I firmly beleave that,as I posted somewhere else,the powers that be should have set their considerable R&Ds to making a modern projectile for the tried and true .30Carbine cartridge. Thats the cartidge NOT the carbine. It can fit in a handgun with a grip about the samesize as the FN so using it in the P90 should work...given some very minor redesign of coarse.
Just thought I would throw this little comentary grenade out there...The pin and spoon are long gone so feel free to throw your selves on it all ya' like.
Wheres my popcorn
MP5-10 and Glock M-20...Flat out putdown the lead to AWESOME effect.Again most folks do not need them but those that do...10mm 180gr,out of 14" barrel...ever see what it does to tissue at 100m compared to SS109 from same 14"?
AR pistols are mostly a curiousity,however,they do get some realworld use.As do AK pistols...with a stock see Krinkov.
Beta mags...Apart from Knob Creek? I have seen very limited use of 40rnd mags but that is about it.
I have no use for the cartridge myself and I do not like it,OH WELL.Perhaps someone does and if it works for them awesome. I firmly beleave that,as I posted somewhere else,the powers that be should have set their considerable R&Ds to making a modern projectile for the tried and true .30Carbine cartridge. Thats the cartidge NOT the carbine. It can fit in a handgun with a grip about the samesize as the FN so using it in the P90 should work...given some very minor redesign of coarse.
Just thought I would throw this little comentary grenade out there...The pin and spoon are long gone so feel free to throw your selves on it all ya' like.
Wheres my popcornBoba Fett
Member
Maverick's got it. Mostly eaten by now though.
Wanta B
Member
ROFLMAO---
- Status
