Deciding the fate of the FN 5.7x28

[Uncle Mike]

Are you guys done?

 

[Maverick223]

Maverick's got it. Mostly eaten by now though.

Yep...just got back...I had to go make some more.

Wanna B, I agree completely, the P90 (and other PDWs) most certainly have their place (though applications are limited), but the 5.7 round, when in the PS90 or Five seveN, is an uninspiring combination, however I would LOVE to see a PS90 in .30 Carbine.

 

[Ruggles]

This will go on as long as 9mm vs .45, AK vs AR, 1911 vs Glock etc etc. Better get some more corn........

 

[tactikel]

The reason the 5.7 was developed was to penetrate body armor worn by eastern bloc troops. 9mm rounds (and my beloved .45 acp) can't penetrate the crudest of modern body armor. If you can't buy AP rounds (and civilians can't), the 5.7 is something better than a .22 mag and less than a .22 hornet. You'd be better off buying a Kel-Tec PMR in .22 mag (it has standard a 30 round mag!) it is less than 1/2 the cost (and ammo is 60% less) of a FN 5seven.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Recent, interesting thread about 5.7x28mm

Some quotes:

A Jacksonville SWAT officer that I know has publicly stated:

"We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been three BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more."

and

"To add to the 5.7x28 fire one of our guys shot a gunman the other day with the P90 at about 7 yards. One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin."

An officer from another agency remarked about a 5.7 mm shooting:

"The other guy was shot 10-12 times before he told the officers "stop shooting me" and gave up. He lived as well."

Followed by the Jacksonville SWAT officer stating:

We have had a VERY similar experience on one of our shoots.

 

[Wanta B]

Ik had om te gaan wat meer maken ook...Gelukkig nieuwjaar Maveric223

 

[Maverick223]

Happy New Year...and enjoy your popcorn, Wanna B

Is Angola under your boots by any chance?

 

[Wanta B]

Ah ha!! Excellent!!

 

[Boba Fett]

Recent, interesting thread about 5.7x28mm

Some quotes:

A Jacksonville SWAT officer that I know has publicly stated:

"We have been using 30 P90's for five years now. There have been three BG's shot with them. We will not be buying more."

and

"To add to the 5.7x28 fire one of our guys shot a gunman the other day with the P90 at about 7 yards. One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin."

An officer from another agency remarked about a 5.7 mm shooting:

"The other guy was shot 10-12 times before he told the officers "stop shooting me" and gave up. He lived as well."

Followed by the Jacksonville SWAT officer stating:

We have had a VERY similar experience on one of our shoots.

Well that all sounds very interesting, but there aren't any credible links I can find. Just one to a forum which links to another forum with a supposed SWAT guy making claims. Not really conclusive evidence.

So let's look for some real evidence we can draw conclusions from:

http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=978

While this is not truly a rifle round, it falls squarely between true rifles rounds and pistol calibers. The SS190 5.7mm round will penetrate body armor out to impressive distances, but the projectile has been designed so as to minimize over-penetration in the human body.

Hmmm...what was it that supposed SWAT guy said? Let's bring that back for a closer look:

One round failed to penetrate the rib. Thats right, the SS190 AP round stuck into the rib just under the skin."

So....what he's saying is...the round did what it was designed to do using the weapons platform it was designed to be fired from? I must be missing something? Why is your supposed SWAT guy upset that the round and weapon did what they were supposed to do?

http://www.krgv.com/content/news/in...howdown-in-Zapata/uFKNGwZ1UEmcZkYly-XLVg.cspx (a 2009 article)

A lack of firepower is one of the many issues the sheriff's department faces.

The sheriff admits he's outgunned.

"These cartel members use rocket-propelled grenade launchers and grenades," he explains. "We don't carry grenades with use. We're a police agency. We're most certainly out gunned. Definitely."

However, the sheriff's department isn't unprepared.

Deputies carry fully-automatic weapons.

"This is the P90. It's a machine gun, doesn't look very pretty but we're not looking for pretty. We're looking for what's going to do the trick for us," says Gutierrez.

http://www.gov.state.ak.us/omb/03_OMB/budget/PublicSafety/proj32261.pdf

FN Herstal P90 5.7x28mm sub-machine gun with visible laser sight. These weapons have been tested by AST
SERT and found to be reliable, compact and accurate. They make an excellent secondary weapon for snipers to
transition into perimeter or entry roles.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcon...-ndfocus_14met.ART.West.Edition1.373fa87.html

First responders in Addison's 52 patrol cars benefit from the gun's compact design and specialty ammunition. The 5.7 mm-by-28 mm round lethally penetrates body armor up to 200 meters.

The accuracy, range and lack of significant recoil allow for use in a densely populated area such as Addison. And because part of the barrel is placed in the stock, the gun can be deployed from inside a patrol car.

.............

Since the installation of the weapons in Addison patrol cars around mid-November, there have been no reports of their use in criminal situations.

But having them as an option provides an element of security for the officer.

"It's better to have this equipment and not need it than to need this equipment and not have it," Lt. Spencer said.

http://startelegram.typepad.com/crime_time/2007/11/cops-get-futuri.html

Many departments have purchased AR-15 patrol rifles, which are similar to weapons used by the U.S. military. Those guns, however, fire .223-caliber rounds with bullets that penetrate their initial targets, but then keep going.

That's a problem in urban settings, like crowded areas with banks and retail shops, where innocent people could get caught in the crossfire, Spencer said. Therefore, he added, Addison decided to acquire a weapon that shoots the 5.7X28mm, which tends to stay in the target.

I'll leave people to draw their own conclusions. I certainly am not saying that you have to love the 5.7 or it's weapon systems, but accurate information is something I prefer to see.

So before claiming that it is hardly used except by the Secret Service or making unlinked/unsubstantiated posts that have rather unbelievable claims, visit Google.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

So....what he's saying is...the round did what it was designed to do using the weapons platform it was designed to be fired from? I must be missing something? Why is your supposed SWAT guy upset that the round and weapon did what they were supposed to do?

The bullet didn't penetrate the thorax. Period. It merely penetrated the skin and stuck in the rib. Neither the thoracic nor abdominal cavities were penetrated. You can barely get any more minimum penetration than that. LOL

So before claiming that it is hardly used except by the Secret Service or making unlinked/unsubstantiated posts that have rather unbelievable claims, visit Google.

Google? You want uncorrupted information? Get it directly from the horse's mouth. I suggest you directly contact Jacksonville Sheriff's Office for more info about their poor OIS experience with the 5.7mm P90: http://www.coj.net/Departments/Sheriffs+Office/Default.htm

Perhaps they can give you contacts at other agencies who've had similar experiences with the P90.

Cheers!

 

[Maverick223]

Ah ha!! Excellent!!

Google translator is a heck of a thing, the first statement had me stumped.

...and now for the continuation of the .

 

[Boba Fett]

@Shawn Dodson

*shrug* still unsubstantiated, and it is your claim so the burden of proof rests with you. Besides, the claim of one supposed SWAT officer does not refute the documented use of the weapon or round

But if you want to go with unsubstantiated types of info, ok:
http://www.fivesevenforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3352
(post is near the middle of the page...look for the pic of the dead deer...only posted pics on the page)

Guy claims he shot a deer with a Five seveN at very close range but even so, the bullet

had passed through a fairly tough hide and then penetrated a good 14-16 inches decimating the vital organs and then made it through the meat on the other side ending up lodged just under the skin.

But unsubstantiated really isn't good enough for me. How about an actual article written for an actual publication? And written by an actual SWAT member?
http://www.hendonpub.com/resources/articlearchive/details.aspx?ID=309

Few excerpts:

Well, the jury is now in. Houston SWAT was involved with the first and only lethal engagement with the weapon to date. I first wrote an article on the P90 for the Texas Tactical Police Officers Association (TTPOA) Command Magazine. Then, as well as now, I carried a P90 as my primary weapon. I have shot thousands of 5.7mm rounds in training and continue to deploy with the weapon on every SWAT situation and high-risk warrant I respond to. I concede that the P90 is not all things to all people. However, for what I do, as a SWAT officer in a major city, it’s a great weapon.

The SS190 ball is not only flat shooting, but also capable of penetrating car doors and auto-glass with minimum ricochet potential. In contrast, the bullet is designed to stay intact and start a controlled tumble once it penetrates a soft medium, thus reducing any over-penetration worries. The SS190 ball penetrates between 11 and 13.5 inches of gelatin, compared to between 17 and 22 inches of penetration for the M855 dual-core 5.56mm NATO round. Upon impact with soft targets, the 5.7mm ball tumbles one time, base over point. This transfers energy and limits over-penetration. The 5.7mm ball produces a wound cavity about the size and shape of the best 9mm 115 grain JHP +P+, except the peak occurs at a deeper penetration.

In the one shooting we had with the P90, the bullet performed well. In fact, the bullet performed exactly as it was designed. The autopsy provided detailed information about the wound cavity and travel of the bullets. None of the 5.7mm rounds fragmented and as far as we can tell, none exited either. The shooting itself was a violent confrontation with many rounds exchanged between the suspect and the react team. The suspect was hit multiple times with both 5.56mm and 5.7mm rounds.

Apparently, she like the P90 and finds it effective. One actual SWAT officer in an actual publication versus a supposed SWAT officer with only an internet post. I'll go with something that has substance first. Produce some substantive findings against the P90 and I'll say they have validity.

I don't really care about the P90 or the 5.7 one way or the other...I just care about real data and not fictional unsubstantiated ungoogled baloney. Present real data against the P90 and 5.7, great! Good info to have that will provide us with something to actually talk about.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

still unsubstantiated, and it is your claim so the burden of proof rests with you.

Honestly, I don't care. I'm presenting additional information for interested readers to consider when judging the effectiveness of this cartridge. What you or anybody else chooses to believe is entirely your business.

I'm not trying to prove anything. If you're interested you can follow up on your own as police shootings are public record. If you're not interested then don't.

Besides the claim of one supposed SWAT officer does not refute the documented use of the weapon or round

I invite you to please show us YOUR documented evidence, as the info you've offered so far has the same credibility as the anecdotal reports I presented. You're not holding yourself to the same standard you demand of others.

Cheers!

 

[Boba Fett]

I invite you to please show us YOUR documented evidence, as the info you've offered so far has the same credibility as the anecdotal reports I presented.

Really? Magazine articles have as little credibility as anecdotal forum posts? I mean...I might go along with that if we were talking about the New York Times, but...


*sniff sniff* I think this thread is getting stale. Probably a good time to lock it down since only Shawn and I are beating this dead horse

And Maverick has got to be out of popcorn by now.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Magazine articles have as little credibility as anecdotal forum posts?

You betcha!

 

[Maverick223]

And Maverick has got to be out of popcorn by now.

Long gone.

 

[cz85cmbt]

Hey Boba Fett check this out. Most cops no %$*# about guns and cartridge design. So some swat officer who says the 5.7 ball operates at the peak of 9mm +P+ hollow points is kidding themselves and yes that is anecdotal evidence regardless of where it was published. The studies done using ballistic gelatin (not f-ing phone books or that clay crap) say that handgun 5.7 terminal ballistics are slightly better than a .22mag rifle. The ps 90 does offer better terminal ballistics mainly because it relies on bullet yaw to create it's wound channel and deliver it's energy, but it is still not impressive although it barely makes the fbi minimum penetration test of 12" in the RIFLE VERSION. This was a test done by handguns magazine. And you know Boba, like I've said before you never hear a bad review in these magazines, why cause the guys they review pay for ad space. I read guys like David Fortier to get a good take on a weapon most guys like Patrick Sweeny just are advertisers for guns and ammunition companies.

 

[Maverick223]

Most cops no %$*# about guns and cartridge design.

They don't need to...if they shoot and the suspect falls down and are unable to resist (whether lethal or not), then it has done its job. I am not saying that is the case, as I don't know (I have never shot someone with it), but the evidence points that way WRT the FA, non-civie legal, P90 in the hands of LEOs (all other platforms are questionable IMO).

 

[unohu69]

Im still up in the air as far as stopping power is concerned, Id rather shoot em with a .45

But the 5-7 is accurate as all hell, Fun to shoot, and you can empty 20-30 rounds fast, on target, at a good distance away. I was consecutively pumpin them into milk jugs at around 200' away.

Granted I still think the damn gun, and the ammo is way over priced.

Only having 1 type of ammo available keeps it stupidly priced. We need other ammo manufacturer to pick up the cartridge. And it would be beneficial for another gun maker to utilize it as well.

I am really intrigued by the kel-tec pmr-30 22 magnum pistol. Nice price and fairly cheap ammo.

 

[Zerodefect]

Test your 5.7x28mm weapons yourself. But my testing puts the PS90 on par with my Glock 19. Definately more powerful than a .380 from a PPK or a 22magnum rifle. And I can get hits with the ps90 at far greater distances than my pistols could even dream of.

5.7mm is not very powerful. But I'm sure it's lethal. The talk about it not making through someones rib is pure internet BS. Unless its a hugely fat guy. 5.7 flys through hard objects like bone. It's goo that stops it. A couch, more than 1 set of walls, or a cynder block should all be able to stop the round. Mine goes right through auto glass, doors, and a couple 2x4's easy.

Not really a scientific test, but it outperforms my Glock 19 in phonebook penetration. That makes it great for defense agianst crazy mail men or Zombie phone books or newspapers that escaped the nuclear recycleing factory. I guess?

The P90 is directed at stealing the HK Mp5 sales. And IMO, it's a better PDW.

I've shot the p90 and own the ps90. I can shoot plenty fast semi auto. FA rate of fire is not an issue.

It also extremely quick to manuever indoors. With a significant speed improvement over even a quick 14.5" AR15. When I'm tired at a carbine class, I switch to my ps90. Feels like cheating. Keep in mind that's with an Aimpoint Comp m3 for an optic, not the slow/dim stock optic.

I can't think of a single senerio where I'd have a ps90 or Ar15 with out allready haveing my CCW on my side. My G23 is allways on my hip or nightstand. so if 5.7 isn't the right choice, i just transition to my secondary weapon, my Glock 23.

Really you have to make you own decision whether or not you can defend yourself with a "high speed, low drag" but marginally powered weapon.

Shooting a Ar pistol indoors is out. That's loud to the point of disorientation. I've had problems with those even with ear pro.

 

[browningguy]

I'm reasonably sure most of the people moaning about the 5.7 don't have one, and have never even fired one. I have an AR57 upper, and it's loads of fun to shoot, no recoil, reasonably accurate, 50 rounds of fun at a time and even my wife enjoys shooting it.

As for a defensive weapon, don't know as I haven't tried it. However with 50 rounds on hand I would not feel undergunned in most any circumstance. But I also have a coice of several .223 semi autos including Ruger, Keltec and an AR, if I need more horsepower than that I have 30-06 and .50 Beowulf in semis, that should cover most bases.