Decisions, decisions...

[strungoutinheaven]

Ok, here's the deal. I'm in the market for a rifle. I want something that's semi-automatic and that accepts high capacity magazines. From what I've read, the vast majority of people swear by ARs. However, my budget is somewhat limited. I need something in the $500-750 range. Theoretically, I could wait and buy an AR in a couple months, however, as much as I want to, the rational side of me knows that dropping a grand on a gun right now is a little impractical. Regardless, I've been waiting to buy a gun for about a year now and I finally have a little spare change saved up. I've been looking at AKs, mini 14s/30s and SU-16s. I know this debate has already been had about a million times, however, I have a few more specific questions.

I was almost positive that I wanted an AK, and came damn close to buying one, when my cousin convinced me that a mini 30 would be a better investment. At first this seemed like a good idea, as the Ruger seemed like a better quality gun (as compared to AKs in the same price range)--which lead me to believe it was more accurate, it accepted magazines of the same capacity as the AK, was capable of shooting both 7.62 and .223 rounds, and seemed more resiliant to abuse than an AR-15 due to its gas system, simpler parts, etc. However, as I did more research, I discovered other problems such as the expense, scarcity and low quality of high capacity magazines, the barrel being designed for .308 rounds and not .311, etc.

Ssssooo...my questions are:
1. What is the inherent accuracy difference between a .223 and a 7.62? (I know the .223s are more accurate, but how much of it has to do specifically with the round itself as opposed to the gun that shoots it).

2. What is the accuracy difference between a Mini-30 and an AK-47 of comparable price?

3. What are the ratios of the accuracy vs. stopping power difference between the .223s and 7.62s? In other words...is there a more drastic difference between the accuracy or the stopping power of the two rounds? (I'm not looking for actual numbers).

I eventually plan on buying a higher power, longer range rifle at some point, so accuracy is not of utmost importance. But what good is a gun if you can't hit anything with it? I essentially need a gun that is accurate enough for non-competitive, medium-range target shooting and also a practical combat weapon...just in case. Something that is relatively modifiable would be nice too. It doesn't necessarially have to be an assault rifle, just something semi-automatic that accepts high capacity magazines in the 500-750 dollar range. Let me know if there's any guns I overlooked.

I've shot both AKs and ARs. Overall, I like AKs better, however, I do appreciate the accuracy and faster rate of fire the AR has. Compensators and recoil buffers seemed to level the playing field a little, though none the less it definitely seemed like I could dump the AR magazines quite a bit quicker.

I also am pretty unfamiliar with the quality of the SU-16s. Any information on them is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[whm1974]

What are you planing on doing with a rifle? If hunting then get the the Mini-30. However you sound like you really want an AK, so get what you want.

However you do sound like you really want both an AK-47 AND AR-15. Get the AK now and next year buy an AR-15.

Myself, unless I'm hunting or live in some People's Republic I wouldn't even bother with the Mini-14/Mini-30.

If your undecided or money is tight you can consider getting an SKS. They are still under $200. And you can always sell it later.

-Bill

 

[whm1974]

What? I'm the only one to reply to this? Help the newbie out guys.

-Bill

 

[MatthewVanitas]

I would definitely go with the AK over the Ruger. I haven't heard a ton of good about the Mini-14, and even less sunny about the Mini-30. This is usually the point where Mini-enthusiasts complain that it's not fair to judge the Mini as an inferior combat weapon, when it's actually an okay sporting rifle. But since you seem interested in a combat weapon, I'd avoid the 30.

Since your budget allows you to buy a good quality AK, I'd not skimp out on this purchase. Read some THR posts about quality AK manufacturers and then make your decision. I always see really solid products at Global Trade's booth at Texas gunshows, so I'd check them out.

Also with the AK, you can stock up on mags and spare-parts for dirt cheap, unlike the Mini.

-MV

 

[Nhsport]

My local big discount firearms store has brand new DPMS AR's for $795. You should be able to find a brand name AR used at private sale for $600-700
I had one of the Ruger ranch rifles,I know some folks say that there are ways to make them shoot decent but mine never did. Darn thing always went bang but god only knows where the bullets were going most of the time.
I don't claim to know much about AK's.
I do know that a sks can be a decent shooter and the things are about the best buy on the firearms market. 7.62x39 isn't as cheep as it once was (or as easy to find) but can still be had for a decent price and is way cheeper than commercial .308. There is some mil surp 308 at a reasonable price but some folks feel it is near the end.
I look at he AR as a system. Once you buy in you can go in whatever direction you want by swaping out uppers and stocks. Shorty carbine.plain jane fixed carry handle,red dot,high or low power scope,standard or target fixed sights,varmit or target barrels,lights and lasers,extra grips,only your wallet will limit you.

 

[ArmandTanzarian]

The better comparison, in my view is Kel Tec SU-16 (5.56x45) vs. AK-style rifle (either 7.62x39 or 5.56x45 or 5.45x39), for your budget. These two have highly available, inexpensive mags, unlike the Rugers.

1. It's not the round; it's the platform; there is nothing inherently less accurate about the 7.62x39mm round, as compared to the 5.56x45mm round.

2. Roughly the same, but the AK likely a tad better. KelTec SU-16 better still.

3. Again, no difference inherently in accuracy - it's the platform that matters. But *because* most rifles in 5.56x45mm ar AR-types, people tend to think of that round as more accurate than the 7.62x39mm, which is normally found in kalashnikovs & simonevs, but it's not necessarily. As for the relative stopping power of these two round - ha, what a can of worms THAT is. Volumes upon volumes upon treatises upon pissing matches have been written on that subject! You'll get strong opinions both ways - just start to searching. But bottom line, they are roughly equal on strictly anti-personnel. BUT, the 7.62x39 busts through intermediate cover barriers better (trees, dirt, sand, bricks, etc.) which your enemy may be hiding behind. It also retains more energy at distance. But, OTOH, at longer ranges (past 150-175 yards), the 5.56 has a flatter trajectory (longer PBR), and thus makes no-think point-n-click offhand shots easier to hit with.

If you can stand the chinsiness of the rifle (plastic etc.), then this is what you want in your price range - it's otherwise reportedly a fine little light rifle:

http://www.kel-tec.com/su16c.html

there's actually 4 or 5 models of the SU-16 - this is just the 'c' model.

Or you can do a home build from AR parts for roughly the same price, if you read up and are somewhat mechanically inclined.

 

[grizz]

+1 on an AK IF you really want the combat capability, however plenty of manufacturers make semi-autos that are available in better calibers for hunting (Browning, Remington, etc.), but the magazines are limited to a handful of rounds.

AK style rifles vary greatly in quality of fit and finish (although they all are usually quite reliable). For $750 I would recommend an Arsenal SA-M7 (AK-47), which is generally regarded as one of the best (if not the best) AK rifle around.

Have fun, and welcome to the wonderful world of firearms.

 

[MisterPX]

Between those choices, I feel an AK/Saiga would be better than a Mini14/30; cheaper mags, more simple operation/assembly. As far as "stopping power" between 7.62 and .223, it depends on what you intend to stop. For deer, etc., I'd go with the 7.62, for personnel, the 5.56 with M193. Not gonna get into the M43 vs. M193 vs M855 debate, as there are already plenty of those. Bottom line being, if you go with a Mini, you may feel some regret down the road. I haven't seen too much on the SLR16.

 

[strungoutinheaven]

Thanks guys. I don't know...around here (I live in Northern Virginia) most of the stuff you find is either real cheap or real expensive. It's either the $400 or so Romanian AK or the $1400 all synthetic, milled receiver Arsenal one. I've been to pretty much all the gun shops...guess I need to go to a few more shows. ARs you're hard pressed to find under $1000. My friend just spent a little over that on a Bushmaster one. Of course, that's for a new one...I need to check out some that have been used. I'll have to look at that Arsenal AK for $750. $750 is still a little steep for me, but if I can get a nice AR or AK for that much I'll spend the extra money. I'f you're already spending $600 you'd might as well spend the extra $150 and get what you really want. I like how you can replace the uppers and all on the ARs. That could save me from having to buy another rifle later. And the ARs and AKs both have a great after market...but the ARs are still in use so it gets bigger everday. I honestly would be so lost if I tried to buy parts and put one together. Sounds like an interesting endeavour...I just wouldn't be too confident in the quality of the gun once I was done. How hard exactly is it? And how difficult would it be to notice and fix my mistakes down the road? Any comments on the performance of the SU-16 vs. an AK-47? (accuracy, reliability, etc.) The SU-16's a lot more synthetic, so I guess the quality isn't quite the same. Glocks use quite a bit of synthetics though and they're nice guns. Anyway...sorry for rambling. Thanks again.

 

[strungoutinheaven]

I also forgot to add that I really have no intentions of hunting with the gun. My dad has plenty shotguns and hunting rifles if I was ever inclined to go.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

IRT to AK prices:

If your local dealers are charging ridiculous prices, then just order it online and have it delivered to your local FFL (Federal Firearm License) Dealer.

To get a listing of local FFLs, go to www.gunsamerica.com, click "Find a Transfer Dealer", and enter your areacode. Around $25 is a common price, sometimes as low as $5 or $10.

Global Trades has NIB AKs on U.S.-made receivers for as low as $470 around Austin. Tack on another $20 for shipping and $25 for FFL transfer and you're = $520, still way under budget. Don't just feel limited to what's on your dealer's shelf if the prices are that inflated.

 

[Gary G23]

http://www.title2.com/Stagarms.html
You can buy a Stag Arms lower and upper for $710.
Or you can buy a Mini 30 or an AK and find out you wasted money on an inferior product.

 

[strungoutinheaven]

That's actually a really good deal, especially considering it includes shipping. I also like the SLR-108 Arsenal is coming out with, however, I can get the AR for 60 bucks more, and I'd probably be waiting another year on the SLR. From what I read, the people that make the Stag receivers also make them for Bushmaster and Rock River Arms. I'm assuming that means it's a decent quality gun? Anything else I need to buy besides magazines if I get a complete lower and upper?

 

[strungoutinheaven]

Only thing I can find "bad" about this gun is that it has a 1/9 twist as opposed to 1/7 and it doesn't have m4 feed ramps. However, some things I've read recommend 1/9 over 1/7. Any ideas on this? And what is the feed ramp on the stag upper like? A lot of people recommend BCM uppers on stag lowers, however, the BCM upper does not come with a bolt carrier, a charge handle or hand guards...which sets me back about another $150. Someone was also complaining about some parts coming loose in the lower (I forget which part specifically and can't find link again)...however I remember someone told him that that was the case with Bushmasters and a lot of other ARs seeing as CMT makes part for all those companies. Any insight?

 

[ugaarguy]

1/9 twist is perfectly good. It'll let you shoot lighter bullets, i.e. 40-55 gr. without over spinning them like a 1/7 would. It will also stabilize 62+ gr. projectiles well unlike the A1's old 1/12. I'm not sure how heavy it'll stabilize, but, IIRC, the really heavy stuff like 70 gr. aand over needs at least a 1/7 twist. Honestly, The 1/9 twist is the ideal all around Bbl. for an AR IMHO.