Is there an AR15 that DOESNT jam? Trying to like the gun...

[Anastrophy]

Well I definitely have a new respect for the AR15/M4, and that probably will be what I get...I'll have no problem keeping it well maintained.

I have respect for those of you who are in the service, and have been fighting for our country.

Maybe because I had a psychological evaluation as a kid, maybe because I scored so high on the SAT's, maybe because of how high my IQ was, I dunno...but when I tried to join, the recruiters (I tried different ones for the Army and Air Force) got weird after pulling up my background check, and...I never clearly found out why the hell they didn't let me join. I tried to join when I was 17, it was 2003 when I would've graduated and gone to the Army.

I'm not WANTING to go fight for the misconstrued "fun" of it, (Because loss of life never = fun)
But I was the age, I should've and would've been over there and stayed in the service for years. But, they wouldn't let me. Now, I'm 26, and I have great respect for all those that ever served.

Oh and the SHTF term came from seeing it in another forum, and figuring it will be a common term across gun forums.
But no, I just mean, something for home defense, and shooting.

I looked at impactguns.com, grabagun.com, midway arms, If I could get an actual colt for under 1000, that would be cool..

Thanks for all the info.

 

[goon]

CDNN has Colts from time to time, but I just called Friday and they're currently sold out.

 

[ugaarguy]

UGAAR

Since my post is bullcrap, if you and me went into a gun shop , me with my Arsenal AK74 and you with your undoubtedly high dollar AR, and I bought 10 of the cheapest milsurp AK mags I could find along with 1000 rounds of Russian surplus, and you bought 10 AR cheap mags out of the bargain bin and 1000 rounds of the cheapest 5.56 you could find, who's rifle is going to jam first and most often?

You think your AR is going to come out on top of that one?

I mean I not sayin,...I'm just sayin....

Allow me to clarify: The part that's bull crap is the idea that AR-15s won't run on cheap ammo & mags. I didn't guarantee that an AR-15 will outlast an AK over multiple thousands of rounds - but I wouldn't be surprised at all if a properly built, AR with BCG kept wet would run with an AK.

As for your challenge, you gonna give me a big enough bargain bin that I can dig through, and find a few mags with feed lips that are within spec? Or would the $89.95 per 10 pack of new mags from Bravo Company be cheap enough? You gonna let me bring my bottle of CLP to keep the BCG wet? You want me to bring my mid-high end Daniel Defense DDM4, or my low price point (under $600) S&W M&P-15 Sport? Both have lifetime warranties, and both owner's manuals say any commercial ammo of proper caliber is good to go.

 

[Tim the student]

Maybe because I had a psychological evaluation as a kid, maybe because I scored so high on the SAT's, maybe because of how high my IQ was, I dunno...but when I tried to join, the recruiters (I tried different ones for the Army and Air Force) got weird after pulling up my background check, and...I never clearly found out why the hell they didn't let me join.

With respect, it wasn't because you were too smart. Probably wasn't because of an eval either. (May have been from what the eval found I suppose...)

Either way, thanks for talking to a recruiter.

 

[BADUNAME13]

Lets go through a few facts first:

Military standards for M16's, AK47's, and even the M1 Were 4 MOA.


NOW:
The AR IS CAPABLE of more accuracy, but it comes with a price.



The AK:
Even my Cheapest WASR (AFTER having over 19,000 rounds down the barrel) will STILL put em into chestsized steel at 300, Prone, offhand, or from Wrapped around a car tire.

An AK: You will know if it will 'run forever' within 3 mags.

The AR:
It may work fine for 'who knows' how long, and one day 'go bad' on you.

THAT SAID:
For a 'reasonable civilian use' (That is, taken out of a climate controlled environment, in good condition, stored 'wet') and fired less than 300 rounds...
The odds are, that it will work fine.


It is also true (Atleast with SS109, which is all I've ever shot anybody with) it takes 5-7 rounds in the chest to put someone down.

.30 doesn't have this problem.



Determine what you want to do:

Then determine the round best for that:

THEN decide the platform.
(Setting your priorities... accuracy, reliability, price etc.)

Me:
I'll NEVER AGAIN go into combat relying on ETHER the AR OR the .223 Willingly.

My 'go to' is an AK, and a FAL, or M1A would be fine also. (Those are in the safe)

 

[jmstevens2]

With respect, it wasn't because you were too smart. Probably wasn't because of an eval either. (May have been from what the eval found I suppose...)

Either way, thanks for talking to a recruiter.

Yea, my scores were in the 99th percentile, all they said to me was "don't you want to be an officer, or go into a technical field? You can go into any field we have" I said, nope, I want to shoot things and blow them up! They still took me. Someone spoke badly of you somewhere along the line.
It was fun at times. Shame I didn't think more to the future than the now, or would that be the then? Hmmm

 

[jmstevens2]

Lets go through a few facts first:

Military standards for M16's, AK47's, and even the M1 Were 4 MOA.


NOW:
The AR IS CAPABLE of more accuracy, but it comes with a price.



The AK:
Even my Cheapest WASR (AFTER having over 19,000 rounds down the barrel) will STILL put em into chestsized steel at 300, Prone, offhand, or from Wrapped around a car tire.

An AK: You will know if it will 'run forever' within 3 mags.

The AR:
It may work fine for 'who knows' how long, and one day 'go bad' on you.

THAT SAID:
For a 'reasonable civilian use' (That is, taken out of a climate controlled environment, in good condition, stored 'wet') and fired less than 300 rounds...
The odds are, that it will work fine.


It is also true (Atleast with SS109, which is all I've ever shot anybody with) it takes 5-7 rounds in the chest to put someone down.

.30 doesn't have this problem.



Determine what you want to do:

Then determine the round best for that:

THEN decide the platform.
(Setting your priorities... accuracy, reliability, price etc.)

Me:
I'll NEVER AGAIN go into combat relying on ETHER the AR OR the .223 Willingly.

My 'go to' is an AK, and a FAL, or M1A would be fine also. (Those are in the safe)

But again, you are comparing the 7.62X39 to a 7.62X54, not even close to the same animal.

 

[BADUNAME13]

jmstevens2
But again, you are comparing the 7.62X39 to a 7.62X54, not even close to the same animal.

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

7.62x39= AK47 and SKS
5.45x39= AK74
5.56x45= M16 Variants (NEARLY identical to .223)
7.62x54R= Draganof (And variants) and Mosin Nagants (And Variants)
7.62x51= NEARLY identical to .308
7.62x63= 30-06


PLEASE SHOW ME where I compared what you say I compared.

 

[BADUNAME13]

I have not really found an AK optics system that I trust to bang around a bit. If I had a bit more practice I would be comfortable with my AK74 which has grouped at 2" at 100 meters, but you have to know that you could be outgunned if the other dude has an ACOG or aimpoint and knows how to use it. There's just no denying that a well zeroed rifle with optic is advantageous.

Attached are pix of a AK47 and AK74 I built.

The 47 is a Romy G kit on a NDS receiver, with a Russian sidefolding stock.

The 74 is a Bulgarian, with similar receiver and stock.

On each are Aimpoints, mounted on Ultimak Rails.

I used both of them (74 the first day, the 47 the second day) in a Carbine class against shooters with AR's. (One of the other shooters is an Army Buddy of mine, a Sniper)


They were using Aimpoints also.

I was using a 'low profile' setup, of a AIWB Glock 26, and the Shoulder bags pictured.

They were all running drop-legged full sized glocks and Chest rigs.

The stages/strings were scored by speed and accuracy.

DESPITE 'working from concealment'...

The AK's and me kept 'neck and neck' in BOTH speed AND ACCURACY.

Ultimaks are awesome, I have half a dozen...

 

[Lakedaemonian]

Dear O.P.

You may or may not be aware, but this discussion is plastered ALL over the internet. Theres no need for you to come here and waste people's time with the type of argument that only gets people riled up; and being outright offensive to boot. I read every word of your post and it leads me to believe that you are a 6th grader that has played too much Call of Duty. In fact, do you have any background in Firearms what so ever, besides your XD 9mm? There is a balance to everything especially with guns. The AR platform is very linear and tightly machined, ergo it will inherently be more accurate than an AK, but also less reliable. The AK is much more sloppy in its assembly, ergo it will not be as accruate, but will be more reliable. (in combination with its piston system) You dont have to have a Mechanical Engineering Degree to visualize how this plays a part in the weapon systems function.

 

[mshootnit]

UGAAR:

You are a good sport thanks for not flaming me out too bad.
OK I get your point you need good feed lips, and lube.
What ammo do you need?

OK here's where I am coming from. Darned near every trip to the range where a buddy of mine has an AR we have a problem. These are just normal guys with used AR's shooting the cheapest crap they can find in pawn shop mags.
You just don't see the AK's having the problems. Even with cheap ammo and mags. How is it that a thread like this always brings the one dude in a thousand (not you UGA) out of the woodwork that has owned 6 AK's and only one of them fired right?

 

[ugaarguy]

UGAAR:

You are a good sport thanks for not flaming me out too bad.
OK I get your point you need good feed lips, and lube.
What ammo do you need?

You know, I've shot small amounts of Wolf in AR-15s I've previously owned. I worked in an LGS and was able to get my hands on quite a few makes & models. I kept what worked for moderate to hard use, and traded back what worked for just recreational use. The last good AR I had, an LMT Defender 2000, was sold last year during another job change when money was tight. The S&W and the DD are somewhat new, with finances having turned around. They've both performed very well with US Mil Surp, Hornady brass training, and cheap PMC brass. I just found Wolf Military Classic at $95 / 500 rounds. I'll get some online, or try to get a local place to get me a similar price. I'll run 500 rounds of Wolf or some other cheap steel cased Russian ammo, lube only, no cleaning, and see if I can make the M&P Sport choke.

I wasn't trying to flame you, and thanks for being good natured about it yourself. I kinda get a little annoyed with the old rumors that AR type rifles are finicky & fragile. I'm also tired of the internet myth that AK and SKS rifles will shoot no better than 10" groups at 100 yards. AKs aren't AR accurate, but they're hardly innacurate for combat use either.

OK here's where I am coming from. Darned near every trip to the range where a buddy of mine has an AR we have a problem. These are just normal guys with used AR's shooting the cheapest crap they can find in pawn shop mags.

Saw way too much of that at the LGS. I've seen too many DPMS & Bushmaster rifles with tight chambers that wouldn't run reliably. Those guys were always the ones with dry BCGs, and beat to Hades mags with jacked up feed lips. Their feelings got so hurt when you told the gunsmith was sending the gun back to mfr to get the chamber re-cut (plain bbls) or the bbl replaced (chromed) with one with a proper dimension chamber. Politely suggesting that they get rid of their beat to crap GI mags from 1986, get some new in wrapper surplus GI mags for $10 each, and buy a $6 bottle of CLP so the rifle would run when it came back, was taken as a huge insult. I totally get where you're coming from.

 

[plunge]

keep it somewhat clean. really well oiled. dont have smashed up mags, and you will have no problems with an ar/m16

 

[Obsidian]

These never seem to end.

My Military background was a unit armorer then a direct support repairman in the Army.

I'm not going in to ballistics, machining or any of that garbage.

In my time I handled, serviced many, many thousands of M16A2's And M16A4's and M4's.

Things that I saw from time to time would be a loose lower receiver extension (Buffer tube) and a loose barrel. Total percentage of that? About one thousand of one percent of all of those. Most of those happened because, the end user did something they were not supposed to. (Outright Abuse or taking something apart they should not have)


Want to know the total failure rate dealing with the AR class of weapons that I saw, that was not related to mental retardation of the end user doing something they were not supposed to?
My high estimate is 1 rifle out of every 2000. That is my high educated guess. The round counts on most of those that did have failures in the M16A2 series? Tens of thousands. (Don't forget that even blanks will cycle the action. They will not wear down the bore, but they operate for all intents other than that the same as a live round)
As far as actual combat time with the rifles and those items being maintained? Failures? Zero. None.

Can someone be stupid and screw up their rifle? Yup. Is that the fault of the rifle? Nope. Do I know how to screw up an AR system very easily? Yup. But I also know how to screw up an AK.

Is either of these mentioned items a machine gun?
No. They are not intended, either one for high sustained rates of fire at cyclic rate. (As fast as the weapon is physically capable of going)

I'll not go in to the early mistakes with the M16, which really was the bean counters not using the right powder, not listening to the designers and the Army saying this was a cleaning free weapon. If you want the real history behind that, check out the Black Rifle Book.

Is the M16 class of weapons the end all be all? No. But it is the best over all tool for the greatest amount of situations for how we fight wars today.

Considering that you have had upgrades to the M16 series as well as the AK series it tells me that both of them are a evolving weapon system.

Spouting off internet trivia and stuff to say that this is better than that is a poor way to get insight. What you are saying with that post I can condense down for you.

My AK is better than your AR. This is why. I made my mind up already. Now fight about it!

The tone of the OP is not one that suggests your looking for much more than a bickering match. I'll say perhaps that is unintended and you were looking for advice or real world information.

I have both weapon platforms. I enjoy each, but to say that the AR is a bad weapon is the same as saying the AK is a bad weapon.

Or a Glock vs a 1911.

Or a Revolver pocket pistol vs the new micro 9s.

The mentioning of the SHTF situation? Want to know what I would take?
The AR because it is shot, to shot more recoverable than an AK 47 is if you want to compare apples to oranges. Want to get more in to detail, bring up the 74 class or the 103 class of AK's. Then you could perhaps get in to shot to shot recovering of target.

 

[cacoltguy]

AR's are built to tighter tolerances than AK's and are therefore more accurate. However, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realize that more tightly fitted parts require less fouling and grime to cause them to fail. They will jam if you neglect to maintain them. If the gun is strictly a range queen or sits in a closet for home protection (99% of all AR's sold probably fall into this category) I doubt you will ever have any problems. Get it dirty however and the story changes. My six years in the military (including deployments to the sandbox and South American jungle) back this up. Obviously we were trained to maintain the weapon but low crawling through sand or patrolling all day in the rain and mud will really test a rifle's durability. It was not uncommon to see jams in situations like these. Usually nothing a "tap rack and bang" wouldn't resolve but it happens nonetheless.

On a side note, why does it have to be an AR or an AK. I say get yourself a Garand design and be done with it lol.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

Then why the hell would I invest my future in the AR 15?
Seems to me that the AK is the gun I can truly rely on, and trust my life to.

Yeah the AR-15 is a dying breed and going the way of the do-do. No reason you should own one, I think this AR-15 popularity is just a fad, save your money.

 

[Norrick]

all guns jam.

 

[MistWolf]

What do you think?
https://danieldefense.com/TortureTest

 

[BADUNAME13]

Hate to break it to you, but unless you sold that 'non-working AK' MORE than 3 years ago...

The PARTS were worth more than that! (And that's if it was built on a flat!)

As to:

I don't use any of that super cheap ammo (silver bear, golden tiger, etc.). I use Wolf and unless it's just a bad batch it works just fine.

The soviets built practically all their ammo plants in the same couple towns, on the same tooling.

It's pretty much the same from a quality standpoint, because the same people are using the same tooling, to make the same ammo.
Only thing different is when they mix up bullet weights etc.

I've shot tens of thousands of rounds of the above, Hotshot etc...
I can think of two failures to fire... Ever.


Gatta agree on the 'overated accuracy of the AR'...
More POTENTIAL by design, absolutely.

 

[nastynatesfish]

the only ever jam i had with my ar was with a reload that wasnt fully sized.
i shoot 55gr wolf steel case though my dpms. almost 1000 rounds so far, not a problem.
i can open sight my rifle to 600meters and have killed coyotes at that with scope.
an ak is like a cresant wrench, an AR is a box end. it fits the job and doesnt bite you if you slip.
you cannt base a rifle comparison on a rifle you havent shot. go somewhere and shoot one with your cresant.
the AR has saved enough lives to prove the fact that its a proven rifle. the only thing that the ak has over the ar is the gas vs piston system. can have one on an ar also. thats gonna be my next spend for my carbine.

 

[Otis is DaMan]

No

It is also true (Atleast with SS109, which is all I've ever shot anybody with) it takes 5-7 rounds in the chest to put someone down.

Nomad, I know you say you have shot people with a 5.56, and I do respect your service. Sorry, and I do respect your service, but that is crazy pure and simple. Not for a second. I know you say you have combat service, but I have information on civilian service and one shot chest (back) kills with .223 galore on record. And I don't care how many people you have shot. Not buying it.

Happy 4th !!!

 

[Art Eatman]

For this, the three-hundredth-and-umpteenth iteration of this subject, the bottom line is that AKs and ARs of decent manufacture which have any sort of proper care will work quite reliably and will give adequate accuracy for any sort of rational self-defense scenario.

 

[JShirley]

To add: the OP is the type of post most often seen from folks who haven't shot a lot. Put a thousand rounds downrange, and you'll have the beginning of an educated opinion. Uninformed opinions are worthless.

A "jam" is a stoppage that requires tools to resolve, btw. Anything quickly corrected by the operator is just a malfunction. In my experience, M4s like to be run with a lot more lube than normally applied to weapons.