Is there an AR15 that DOESNT jam? Trying to like the gun...

[Anastrophy]

Hello,
My brother just bought a Polish Milled 1960 AK 47
I was looking at AKs, but now that he has one, I will be able to fire it, and can look at getting something else, like an AR 15.

Now, the core of my acquiring guns is to be as ACCURATE a shot as I can be, because I know how much shot placement matters. Also, when SHTF, it would be very useful to be a good shot, so accuracy and precision is key to me.

But, the problem I hear in the classic AK 47 vs AR 15 debate, is that the AK 47 won't jam on you, like the AR will, and even if your AR is nice and accurate, it means nothing if it jams up and you die.

So, the AK seems to be the superior weapon to me, because as long as you have a quality AK, it will be reliable. And, even though its 7.62 cartridge is bigger and has more bullet drop, more recoil, and therefore less accuracy, the reliability, and the much simpler design of the weapon means that it's something you can TRULY trust your life to. Not to mention, the sheer damage caused by a 7.62.

So HOW inaccurate is an AK vs an AR? Can you hit 1" groups 100 yards away with an AK? Whats the difference 200, 300 yards away?

I've got a SA XD 4" 9mm that I CCW all the time, I cleaned it when I first bought it, cleaned it after every time I've shot it, and make sure it's nice and oiled at least once a month. I've gone thru 950 rounds, all sorts of ammo, and it has NEVER jammed. Not to mention, how accurate the XD is.

It seems my pistol has what I'm looking for. Accuracy AND reliability. I don't want to tradeoff.

I hate to say it, but if you're telling me that the US Military has noticed the design flaw that causes an issue with carbon buildup, and companies like HK are making a far more efficient M4 Type rifle that doesn't Jam (but isn't publicly available any larger than a .22), and they are looking to phase it out with a better rifle, and certain agencies have already started to do so....

Then why the hell would I invest my future in the AR 15?
Seems to me that the AK is the gun I can truly rely on, and trust my life to.

For as nice as the AR looks, and how "tacticool" I could make it, its also more expensive, and so are the magazines and ammo. That would be fine, if it was a superior weapon...but I just don't see that.

Facts? Opinions? Experience? World just ended, you can pick up an AK or AR, which one? Which brand? Why?

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

Ehmm...whiskey tango foxtrot

Where are you getting your info buddy? Because I see a LOT of holes in your logic

 

[straitnate14]

really?

 

[HorseSoldier]

Real subtle like purchase an AR-15 from most any reputable manufacturer -- even the so-so ones like Bushmaster or DPMS -- and then make sure you lube the hell out of the bolt carrier group. Problem solved.

Seriously. Never had a problem keeping my .mil issue M16 or M4 running with infinitely less trouble than all the internet mythology suggests.

 

[Canuck-IL]

1 DCM model from Rock River and 1 WOA match upper - way more than 950 rounds through each, the next jam, FTF, FTE, etc. will be the first.

/Bryan

 

[mshootnit]

AK rifles have acceptable accuracy for firing up to 200 meters and above average reliability.

AR rifles especially free floated ones or custom ones with optics allow a person to get real accurate. We are talking coyotes at 300 meters accurate.

Going to the extremes with your question, average AR accuracy is going to be 1-2 MOA while average AK accuracy is going to be 2-3 MOA. I am basing this off of experience with a dozen or so AK rifles of different types and several ARs. This means that at 200 yards you will likely be shooting 2-4 inch groups with your AR while you will be shooting 4-6 inch groups with the AK. I don't know about you but I would not stand in front of an Ak at that distance. Moving to 300 yards we have 3-6 inch groups with the AR and 6-9 inch groups with the AK. Also a little more drop with the AK at that distance. Now it is possible to have some misses with the AK which would probly be hits with the AR which is still dangerous at that range.

I have not really found an AK optics system that I trust to bang around a bit. If I had a bit more practice I would be comfortable with my AK74 which has grouped at 2" at 100 meters, but you have to know that you could be outgunned if the other dude has an ACOG or aimpoint and knows how to use it. There's just no denying that a well zeroed rifle with optic is advantageous.


The trade off is that the AK is very reliable in that when you pull the trigger it goes bang. With Ak's: cheap ammo + cheap mags + no cleaning = RUN

With AR's cheap ammo + cheap mags + no cleaning = FAIL

The ergonomic differences are a wash any deficiencies the AK has can be overcome by technique and practice

 

[Cal-gun Fan]

Now, the core of my acquiring guns is to be as ACCURATE a shot as I can be, because I know how much shot placement matters. Also, when SHTF, it would be very useful to be a good shot, so accuracy and precision is key to me.

Nothing wrong with wanting to be accurate. But if you want to get accurate, even the best rifle in the world won't help you a darn bit if you don't work on your skills and practice practice practice.

WHEN SHTF? First off-please dont use that term here. PLEASE. If you want to talk SHTF...go to one of the zombie forums or something. If you want a home defense rifle, say that. If you want a hunting rifle, say that. But please, don't use SHTF.

But, the problem I hear in the classic AK 47 vs AR 15 debate, is that the AK 47 won't jam on you, like the AR will, and even if your AR is nice and accurate, it means nothing if it jams up and you die.

This is a very VERY misinformed opinion. The AK is NOT the invincible rifle. It can jam just like any other weapon if not taken care of or not assembled well.
The jams of the M16 in Vietnam are not the same problems of the M16s and AR-15s today. They are quality rifles. As my dad says, take care of your gear and it will take care of you.
In Vietnam, the M16 was marketed as a no-maintenance rifle at first and soldiers were not issued with cleaning kits. This lead to a lot of the jams.


So, the AK seems to be the superior weapon to me, because as long as you have a quality AK, it will be reliable. And, even though its 7.62 cartridge is bigger and has more bullet drop, more recoil, and therefore less accuracy, the reliability, and the much simpler design of the weapon means that it's something you can TRULY trust your life to. Not to mention, the sheer damage caused by a 7.62.

So HOW inaccurate is an AK vs an AR? Can you hit 1" groups 100 yards away with an AK? Whats the difference 200, 300 yards away?

I've got a SA XD 4" 9mm that I CCW all the time, I cleaned it when I first bought it, cleaned it after every time I've shot it, and make sure it's nice and oiled at least once a month. I've gone thru 950 rounds, all sorts of ammo, and it has NEVER jammed. Not to mention, how accurate the XD is.
It seems my pistol has what I'm looking for. Accuracy AND reliability. I don't want to tradeoff.

A Krebs, Saiga, or Arsenal AK in 7.62 might be able to hit 1 inch groups from a bench if you had a rest, a scope, and some VERY good ammo, and were an excellent shooter. An equivalent company's rifle in 5.45 could do that more easily, maybe. But the point is, if you are concerned about your commies invade "SHTF" style accuracy...who are you kidding? You aren't going to have a bench. You won't have a rest. You probably won't be prone. You probably won't have handloads or quality ammo. And you probably wouldn't put a scope on it.

The AK is not the worlds most accurate rifle. But quality varies a lot. It is the same with ARs.

I hate to say it, but if you're telling me that the US Military has noticed the design flaw that causes an issue with carbon buildup, and companies like HK are making a far more efficient M4 Type rifle that doesn't Jam (but isn't publicly available any larger than a .22), and they are looking to phase it out with a better rifle, and certain agencies have already started to do so....
Then why the hell would I invest my future in the AR 15?
Seems to me that the AK is the gun I can truly rely on, and trust my life to.
For as nice as the AR looks, and how "tacticool" I could make it, its also more expensive, and so are the magazines and ammo. That would be fine, if it was a superior weapon...but I just don't see that.
Facts? Opinions? Experience? World just ended, you can pick up an AK or AR, which one? Which brand? Why?

Ok...first off, there is NO problem with the current M16A2/A3/A4 or M4 series of rifles. The difference between the M16/M4s and the HK-416 is that the M16 is a direct impingement rifle, which is a very accurate type of system. The 416 is a gas piston, and is not known for great accuracy.

If I am correct, the HK rifle is available in the MR762 version, which is its AR-10 equivalent. Both the MR556 and MR762 are, IMO, overpriced, heavy (have handled the 556) and do not have a great reputation for accuracy.

Is the AK superior to the AR? I don't think so. Is the AR superior to the AK? I think that it is a much more versatile platform, yes. But they are good at different things. Its like Apples and oranges here really, which is something people don't often seem to get.


EDIT: Rereading that I came off really harsh. Sorry if I seemed unconstructive. Tired, probably shouldn't have posted...but, oh well.
Did your info come from the World War Z guy's book by the way? Not to be rude or sarcastic-the post just read like a chapter from his survival guide a bit.

 

[ugaarguy]

I hate to say it, but if you're telling me that the US Military has noticed the design flaw that causes an issue with carbon buildup, and companies like HK are making a far more efficient M4 Type rifle that doesn't Jam (but isn't publicly available any larger than a .22), and they are looking to phase it out with a better rifle, and certain agencies have already started to do so....

Read This - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=600758
And Read This - http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/v/vspfiles/assets/images/filthy14_oct10.pdf

ETA:

The trade off is that the AK is very reliable in that when you pull the trigger it goes bang. With Ak's: cheap ammo + cheap mags + no cleaning = RUN

With AR's cheap ammo + cheap mags + no cleaning = FAIL

Bull Crap - see links above.

ETA 2: Between an AR and an AK get whichever one you like better, and practice with it. I've been shooting AR-15s since I was 16, and spent a decent portion of my four years in the USAF using an M16A2. I have too much trigger time & familiarity with AR-15 type rifles to justify using something else. Still, if some law was passed banning AR-15s, but still allowing AK type rifles, then I'd go get an AK & practice with it. Either will work just fine - just keep the BCG wet if you get an AR-15.

 

[Chindo18Z]

Not to mention, the sheer damage caused by a 7.62

Myth. 5.56 x 45 typically causes more damage than 7.62 x 39 (comparing FMJ to FMJ).

I've seen quite a few folks survive AK wounds. I've seen fewer survive 5.56.
Of those I've observed who survived their wounds, the 5.56 recipients were more of a mess.

For further info, read this:

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/wounding_patterns_military_rifles.pdf

 

[CapnMac]

Gee, the Maadi mak-90 I used to was much more likely to have an ammo situation than my Eagle Arms AR-15A2. Now, how much of that is due to quality of ammo is subject to question (despite my buying just as cheap 5.56 as 7.62)

Ergo, I'm seeing your question as hearsay non sequitur.

 

[C-grunt]

Anastrophy..... First I would like to let you know that you are very wrong about the reliability of the AR-15/M4/M16 platform. It is a very reliable weapon with easy and minimal maintenance.

My Noveske N4 went a little over 1000 rounds, spread out between a few shooting sessions, with no cleaning and it had no jams. All I did was squirt some oil in the action when I brought it home. Since then I have done a couple simple wipe down cleanings, takes about 5-10 minutes, and it has a total of about 2000 rounds through it without a single jam.

My Colt 6920 did the same for 800 rounds before I decided to clean it. I do keep it a bit more clean than the Noveske since the Colt is my HD rifle.

Read this snip from the following article:
http://www.03designgroup.com/reviews/bcm-complete-ar15-upper-and-lower-receivers

On 12-24-
09 I contacted Pat Rogers to see what the current round count of the BCM 16" Mid-Length that he has been loaning out to students. Pat refers to this BCM Mid-Length as "Filthy 14" and provided me with the following information on this gun:

***************************************************************************************************************************************** "Filthy #14 is the most used, and has (as 12-24-09) 28905 rounds down range. The barrel is original. It has never had a brush put through it. -At 16,400 rounds bolt lug cracked. Replaced the bolt carrier group

-At approximately 26,000 rounds fired a 5 shot 50m group that went into 0.5". This might not be that tight at 100 meters.

-At 26,450 rds had 3 failures to extract. Replaced BCG and cleaned gun for the first time

We use only SLip2000 EWL for lube and Slip 2000 725 to clean.

**All of the rounds were fired during class (at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days)**

I do not recommend allowing the gun to go this long without PM (preventive maintenance). However, we wanted to see how far we could take this particular gun (#14) without being burdened by the myth of meticulous cleaning."

***************************************************************************************************************************************

Keep in mind the punishment that Pat Rogers' BCM mid-length has been put through. The gun is being shot approximately 8 hours a day in a tactical training class environment at the rate of approximately 1,250 rounds every 3 days. Very few people have the time, money, or effort to run a gun like that for 28,905 rounds. This upper has the standard barrel, not the new BFH (cold hammer forged) barrel.

The AR rifle is a reliable gun. If it was not it would not be the rifle of choice for most of the western world's elite military forces. If it truly was unreliable it wouldnt have been our standard issue rifle for the last 40 or so years.

As far as the AK goes.... it is a very reliable rifle (when properly built and taken care of) that is accurate enough for most combat engagements which take place within 300 meters. I am a fan of the AK series of rifles. I do prefer the AR15 but I would definitely feel good carrying an AK47 into harms way.

 

[goon]

I have had six AK's.
Four ran perfectly. One was bloody accurate, two were about 3-4" guns all the time at 100 yards, one was a 6" gun at 100 yards. Two more were unreliable POS's - an Armory SSR-85C and a Lancaster Arms Romanian.

In my life I've carried two M-16A2's and owned one AR. One M-16 malfunctioned every other round - literally. I noticed that the extractor spring was weak so I complained. Once fixed, it ran perfectly. The second was reliable all the time. The AR I owned was an Olympic - bought before I understood their lack of real quality - and it also ran 100%. I've also seen M-16's take some very hard falls and one guy in my unit even used his to pound pickets (fence posts). It was stupid, but the gun handled the abuse just fine.
The next money I spend on a semi-auto rifle will most likely be for an AR-15 style rifle. Unless I stumble on to a deal I just can't pass up, I don't think I'll buy another AK. I just am not all that thrilled with them.

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

This post makes my brain hurt...

 

[mshootnit]

UGAAR

Since my post is bullcrap, if you and me went into a gun shop , me with my Arsenal AK74 and you with your undoubtedly high dollar AR, and I bought 10 of the cheapest milsurp AK mags I could find along with 1000 rounds of Russian surplus, and you bought 10 AR cheap mags out of the bargain bin and 1000 rounds of the cheapest 5.56 you could find, who's rifle is going to jam first and most often?

You think your AR is going to come out on top of that one?

I mean I not sayin,...I'm just sayin....

 

[Anastrophy]

I had heard on the news of lots of soldiers picking up AK 47s in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I also heard that sandstorms mess our guns up, and there's been bases ambushed by terrorists and the guns seize up.
I know that the Military is obsessive about cleaning guns now, but that could also be due to the fact that the AR 15 has to be kept so clean.
It had been our rifle for so long because of $$$ and Government arrangements with large corporations.
I did read those articles though, and I didn't know it was advertised as a maintenance free gun, and now that I do know that, I do have more faith in the AR15.

Actually, after reading how many rounds that one AR went thru, very impressive.

My $ range, if I were to get one, would be no more than $1000, I like the Bushmaster M4A3, and the DPMS Panther AP4.

Any other suggestions? What specifically to look for when getting one?

 

[C-grunt]

I had heard on the news of lots of soldiers picking up AK 47s in Iraq and Afghanistan.
I also heard that sandstorms mess our guns up, and there's been bases ambushed by terrorists and the guns seize up.
I know that the Military is obsessive about cleaning guns now, but that could also be due to the fact that the AR 15 has to be kept so clean.
It had been our rifle for so long because of $$$ and Government arrangements with large corporations.
I did read those articles though, and I didn't know it was advertised as a maintenance free gun, and now that I do know that, I do have more faith in the AR15.

Actually, after reading how many rounds that one AR went thru, very impressive.

My $ range, if I were to get one, would be no more than $1000, I like the Bushmaster M4A3, and the DPMS Panther AP4.

Any other suggestions? What specifically to look for when getting one?

For 1000 dollars I would look at a standard BCM, Daniel Defense and Colt.

I was in Iraq during the initial invasion and was on the front line the entire time. We did pick up a lot of AK47s but I NEVER saw a regular line soldier using it over their M16/M4. It really makes no sense if you think about it. The M16/M4 would be zero'e to the soldier, so why would they use a completely unknown rifle that isnt zero'd to them?

Ive been through more than a few sandstorms and had no problems.


That is me on the SAW covering my squad leader during the big sandstorm during the invasion. We were being flanked by a RPG team. Didnt have any problems then.

The battle where the base was attacked and the rifle seized was the battle of Wanat. What happened there was poor planning by the superiors and they left those guys without suficient numbers and support. The M4 is a great rifle, but it is not a machine gun. The guys there were shooting so much that the rifles were breaking.

 

[HorseSoldier]

I had heard on the news of lots of soldiers picking up AK 47s in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Nope. The only point in time when this occurred with any frequency at all was early in the occupation of Iraq when guys whose MTOE weapon system was an M9 pistol were told to get off their tanks or whatever and start doing foot or humvee patrols.

Basis of issue for M4s and M16s was pretty immediately adjusted and this problem was resolved before the end of the first year of the occupation.

I also heard that sandstorms mess our guns up, and there's been bases ambushed by terrorists and the guns seize up.

Jessica Lynch and the rest of the 507th Maintenance Company failed to keep their M16s running . . . but then they failed to keep any of their issue weapons in condition to keep running during the firefight that made them a historical footnote, not just their M16s. So the problem was probably the indian, not the arrow . . .

As for guns seizing up, there were some problems in a fire fight or two in Afghanistan where M4s failed after guys went cyclic (or as close as you can get with 3 round burst) with them and burned through stacks of magazines. Do the same thing with an AK and it will also fail (and catch on fire . . .). There's a reason why assault rifles and light machineguns are distinctly different animals.

I know that the Military is obsessive about cleaning guns now, but that could also be due to the fact that the AR 15 has to be kept so clean.

I suppose it depends on the unit. For entertainment and to irritate people, I limited my M4A1 cleaning to wiping the bolt and BCG down with a dirty gym sock and keeping it really lubed for a while. Ran fine.

To be fair, there are a lot of people in leadership positions in the US military who don't know enough about weapons to know how to keep them running, but believe rubbing the finish off parts must be a good thing. If we were issued AKs, these same idiots would have the same fetish.

 

[CapnMac]

Again, hearsay non sequitur.

My twenty-year old Eagle is middle-market; I've no need for buying cheap magazines having collected by baseplate stamp over that time, too. Further, a body would have to work hard to find Wolf cheaper than the $2/box WWB I already have. Putting that up for performance testing vice 5.45x39 in a just-out-of-the-box anything would not tell anyone anything about the comparison.

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

Since my post is bullcrap, if you and me went into a gun shop , me with my Arsenal AK74 and you with your undoubtedly high dollar AR, and I bought 10 of the cheapest milsurp AK mags I could find along with 1000 rounds of Russian surplus, and you bought 10 AR cheap mags out of the bargain bin and 1000 rounds of the cheapest 5.56 you could find, who's rifle is going to jam first and most often?

You think your AR is going to come out on top of that one?

I have shot over 5k rounds out of both of my AR's combined. I have one M&P15 that is decked out, and one Bushmaster that I bought used. I have 8 P-MAG's and 10 mags I picked up for $8 each. I thought they would all jam, but couldn't pass up the price. Haven't had one jam, ftf, fte or any thing else.

 

[AWorthyOpponent]

5k rounds ? That's too high for me.

This is over the last 3-4 years.

 

[Geckgo]

XCR <--- my dream rifle, I was even temped for a while to start working on the licensing for a full-auto SBR version, but quickly realized that it wasn't worth it on my salary and only a matter of time before the govt would find an excuse to take it away from me.

 

[Tim the student]

Er...

I don't think I feel like saying much else in this thread now, other than I spent a fair bit of time in Iraq. I shot my rifle in training there, and in combat there. I never had any problems with it.

 

[Carter]

XCR <--- my dream rifle, I was even temped for a while to start working on the licensing for a full-auto SBR version, but quickly realized that it wasn't worth it on my salary and only a matter of time before the govt would find an excuse to take it away from me.

I had a XCR. They're over rated. I much prefer my BCM AR. Plus, the owner, Mr. Robinson, is a bit whacked. Don't get me wrong though, it is a good design.

My first AR made me believe all AR's were crap. I ended up spending and losing a lot money trying to find the right rifle for me. Then I tried my friends BCM AR and was in love. The AR-15 is like a sedan. Some manufactures make crap (cough Hyundai cough) and some make a darn fine product. And just like cars, price and quality will vary widely.

 

[jmstevens2]

My M-16A1 in basic was so old that you could grab the upper and lower receivers and they would move side to side. We were not given bore cleaner after we learned to use it, only light weapons oil (CLP wasn't invented yet), we shot the heck out of them, we had the armorer look up how old they were and figured out how many training cycles they had been through and how many rounds we fired (roughly) in basic and figured the rifles we were using had between 100,000 and 150,000 rounds through them. And we were still hitting 500 meter human sized targets with them. I do not recall any malfunctions with them, or any other M-16 I have used.
In ODS in 90-91 we cleaned them more often than at home, but they worked, and again I recall no malfunctions in my unit, other than the one the Bradley ran over.
I have an AK-74. I would never grab it for defense unless it was all there was, I own it because my call of duty kid thinks it is cool and I can get ammo for around 11 cents a round. He has no trigger control, he thinks spray and pray works.

The military is looking at new weapons, what are they looking at? M-16 clones. What they want is a 7.62X54 option (not even remotely close to a 7.62X39) A .308. We have a new fight on our hands, 5.56 was fine for the shorter distances of woodland combat, the shorter M-4 is basically a CAR-15 in new clothes. Works good in CQC. We are seeing that we need more reach in mountains and the 7.62X54 fills that need well.
We are not getting rid on Stoner's design, it works very well, we are adapting to a new type of fighting that we see in the future. Some of the newer options may be able to change around to the configuration that you need for the fight you have.

By the way, as to the "when the SHTF" shouldn't that be IF, not when?
This is not a zombie apocalypse community. There isn't much for X Box commandos either. When you talk like that is makes you sound like one.

You should be able to get a lot of AR for a grand. I just picked up and M-4 A3 type new for under $550 a month ago. and that was with a detachable carrying handle for the Iron sights. I don't put all that commando crap on mine, I just don't need all that stuff. No scope either, if they are that far away, I have no business engaging them.

 

[goon]

UGAAR

Since my post is bullcrap, if you and me went into a gun shop , me with my Arsenal AK74 and you with your undoubtedly high dollar AR, and I bought 10 of the cheapest milsurp AK mags I could find along with 1000 rounds of Russian surplus, and you bought 10 AR cheap mags out of the bargain bin and 1000 rounds of the cheapest 5.56 you could find, who's rifle is going to jam first and most often?

You think your AR is going to come out on top of that one?

I mean I not sayin,...I'm just sayin....

Right now I own neither an AK nor an AR.
Still, I've owned two AK's that didn't run with any ammo or any magazines. They were just unreliable POS's. Guess someone forgot to tell them they had a reputation to live up to.
Any gun can give you headaches if reasonable steps aren't taken to make it run right or if something is broken our out of spec, even your AK. As a matter of fact, the firing pin just broke in my brother's Romanian AK after only about 700 rounds fired.
Surely not, you might say! That's what everyone else said... but that didn't make any difference. The firing pin came out in two peices and the gun wears a replacement now, in spite of the AK's reputation.
I'm not targeting you specifically with this - just saying that at the end of the day, an AK is just a gun, and guns sometimes fail, and that's just how it is.