"Decommissioned, replica, or airguns" being converted into "real" guns?
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Roswell 1847
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Not state secrets I'm concerned about, its details that some kid might read and try building one themselves.
Guns are ridiculously easy to make, its making them well thats a challenge.
I've seen Mau Mau zip guns made using a radio aerial a block of wood and a regular screen door bolt latch.
Deadly enough to kill a cop and take his gun if they got close enough. And with it strapped to the wrist under a shirt sleeve they could get close enough.
LubeckTech
Member
If banning all guns will stop or "reduce" crime then why is Britan such a violent place?? We all know that Sara Brady and her croud couldn't be wrong!! So what's the problem?
Robert Hairless
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When I was a kid eons ago it wasn't unusual for drivers who parked on the streets of New York City and other big cities to find their car antennas snapped off. Those antennas were used for the barrels of zip guns, which fired a single .22 and were made easily from scrap materials such as a block of wood, a nail, and a strong rubber band. (I understand that some juvenile delinquents modified cap guns for a more sophisticated firing mechanism. There always are status seekers.)
To do a proper job of gun control, England needs to ban car antennas and similar tubing as well as wood, nails, and rubber bands. I like that idea and support it. That part of me admires the government's tenacity. Eventually they might realize that the only way to really control gun ownership is to drive the inhabitants of that blessed isle back into caves or daub and wattle shelters.
But then they might find sociopaths who fit chipped bits of stone into the ends of hefty clubs so as to defend against psychopaths or commit rampages of their own.
Funny thing. I was a kid and a teenager long before the Gun Control Act of 1968, so "real' guns were minimally controlled and many more of them were available then than now. But gangs built zip guns. Today we are much more enlightened and benefit from a great many more gun control laws. But gangs seem to find it's easier to get "real" guns than to build zip guns.
My theory to explain this apparent failure of gun control in the United States is that the gangs aren't meeting their responsibility to read the many gun control laws and might not even know about them. It's why I think that Carolyn McCarthy, Charles Schumer, Sarah Brady, and others need to get out on the streets every night, introduce themselves to gang members, and tutor them in how to read the gun control laws. Might work.
To do a proper job of gun control, England needs to ban car antennas and similar tubing as well as wood, nails, and rubber bands. I like that idea and support it. That part of me admires the government's tenacity. Eventually they might realize that the only way to really control gun ownership is to drive the inhabitants of that blessed isle back into caves or daub and wattle shelters.
But then they might find sociopaths who fit chipped bits of stone into the ends of hefty clubs so as to defend against psychopaths or commit rampages of their own.
Funny thing. I was a kid and a teenager long before the Gun Control Act of 1968, so "real' guns were minimally controlled and many more of them were available then than now. But gangs built zip guns. Today we are much more enlightened and benefit from a great many more gun control laws. But gangs seem to find it's easier to get "real" guns than to build zip guns.
My theory to explain this apparent failure of gun control in the United States is that the gangs aren't meeting their responsibility to read the many gun control laws and might not even know about them. It's why I think that Carolyn McCarthy, Charles Schumer, Sarah Brady, and others need to get out on the streets every night, introduce themselves to gang members, and tutor them in how to read the gun control laws. Might work.
macFarlaine
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World War 2,the Warsaw uprising,the vast majority of weapons were home made in simple underground rooms with no working machinary.We used to have a nice collection of .410 walking stick guns,pre UK ban.
MD_Willington
Member
Deact's are different in different parts of the world..
here's an AK74 available in the UK...
http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-deact_ak74m.htm
Deactivation specifications
- in place covered by the polymer hand guards the barrel has 3 cross holes equal in diameter to caliber of the barrel
- the chamber is sealed by welding
Fix: Replace barrel & trunnion assembly
- the bolt is cut at an angle
- the firing pin channel is welded
- the bolt locking lugs on the bolt and ledges on the receiver are removed
- the piston head of bolt carrier is filed off
- the lower safety lug on the bolt carrier will cause chambering of two cartridges at a time, which would make shooting impossible
Fix: Replace bolt, bolt carrier & gas piston
- the magazine cartridge guides are removed to make loading impossible
Fix: Replace followers in magazine
Doesn't seem like it would take much to make a working AK74...
here's an AK74 available in the UK...
http://www.rusmilitary.com/html/c-deact_ak74m.htm
Deactivation specifications
- in place covered by the polymer hand guards the barrel has 3 cross holes equal in diameter to caliber of the barrel
- the chamber is sealed by welding
Fix: Replace barrel & trunnion assembly
- the bolt is cut at an angle
- the firing pin channel is welded
- the bolt locking lugs on the bolt and ledges on the receiver are removed
- the piston head of bolt carrier is filed off
- the lower safety lug on the bolt carrier will cause chambering of two cartridges at a time, which would make shooting impossible
Fix: Replace bolt, bolt carrier & gas piston
- the magazine cartridge guides are removed to make loading impossible
Fix: Replace followers in magazine
Doesn't seem like it would take much to make a working AK74...
macFarlaine
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Daub always follows wattle.We have had our moments,but I don't kick injured bull dogs.
matt87
Member
This is the latest British media anti-gun whipping boy. There have been a lot of articles about this topic recently, and I've been in a few (academic) conversations as to whether the fuss is worth it. Turns out most of these 'converted' or 'recomissioned' guns aren't what you might consider to be a real gun; as discussed there is a lot less trength to a replica or your average blank firer that you'd want in a real gun. Many 'converted' guns will fly apart after a couple shots. Many converted airguns are in fact redesigned so that one loads a pellet and then loads a blank behind it. 'Tis a gun according to the law yes, and has some chance of killing you, but a fiar amount of chance of killing the person behind it or to the side of it too...
Having a bit of engineering/machining and firearms experience I can agree totally that it'd probably be easier and safer to make a gun from scratch. Look at Luty, he wrote a book on how to manufacture a smoothbore straight blowback SMG in 9x19 using a drill, an angle grinder and a few hand tools from scrap metal in a weekend. Even went into some detail to handloading with improvised materials I understand (ain't read the book...). IMO these 'conversions' are built for the market that knows nothing about guns except what they look like roughly. Looks like a Glock, goes blang, bullet comes out muzzle, it's a Glock. Never mind about materials suitability, reliability, ammo consistency etc.
Woodbrighton, I don't agree. Yes there are certain regulations on blankfirers that we have that most European countries don't but that doesn't mean they're easy to 'convert'. Yes you might be able to drill one out and turn it into what is leglaly defined as gun. It's a poor one though, and as much risk to the person on the trigger end as the one at the muzzle end. Not the first time the police have made a fuss over something that is not neccesarilly a problem. I don't have blind faith in authority. Wouldn't be surprised if certain senior police officers were saying these things in order to direct flak away from them for not doing their jobs properly.
Having a bit of engineering/machining and firearms experience I can agree totally that it'd probably be easier and safer to make a gun from scratch. Look at Luty, he wrote a book on how to manufacture a smoothbore straight blowback SMG in 9x19 using a drill, an angle grinder and a few hand tools from scrap metal in a weekend. Even went into some detail to handloading with improvised materials I understand (ain't read the book...). IMO these 'conversions' are built for the market that knows nothing about guns except what they look like roughly. Looks like a Glock, goes blang, bullet comes out muzzle, it's a Glock. Never mind about materials suitability, reliability, ammo consistency etc.
Woodbrighton, I don't agree. Yes there are certain regulations on blankfirers that we have that most European countries don't but that doesn't mean they're easy to 'convert'. Yes you might be able to drill one out and turn it into what is leglaly defined as gun. It's a poor one though, and as much risk to the person on the trigger end as the one at the muzzle end. Not the first time the police have made a fuss over something that is not neccesarilly a problem. I don't have blind faith in authority. Wouldn't be surprised if certain senior police officers were saying these things in order to direct flak away from them for not doing their jobs properly.
macFarlaine
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.We do not have a firearm problem in the UK,basic metal work class can enable a person to put a gun together.It may only fire once but it will kill,if you want one you can make one.Maybe there is no real call for them in the UK...
Roswell 1847
member
That does increase the psychological aspect.
A victim confronted with a block of wood with a radio aerial and a door latch hooked to a draw spring wouldn't react the same way they would to having something that looked like the guns they've seen in movies pointed at them.
You can imagine someone pointing what is obviously a bicycle tire pump at you and saying "Freeze MF". Its not likely to prevent you from trying to show them a new place to hide that pump.
PS
An East German company used to import an air rifle to the US which was made from real AKM parts including the receivers. The BATF stopped them from impoting them because it was easy to reconvert them into working AKM if you could find or fabricate just a few parts most of which were available.
Here is the Russian made version.
The earlier model differed in some details of construction, and if I'm not mistaken was built in East Germany as a training rifle.
AK-74M / AKS-74 / AKM look-alike Yunker-3 Air Rifles
IZHMASH' Yunker-3 semi-automatic CO2 rifle is designed for target shooting. 95% of its parts are genuine AK-74 / AKM assault rifle parts. Metal BBs (Ball Bullets) are used as bullets, which are fed directly from magazine through the MP-841K valve unit mechanism. This unit accomodates 18 BBs as well as gas bulb. The package also includes 200 BBs, service kit, manuals & complimentory AK canvas sling.. AK-74M version includes polymer folding buttstock & polymer handguards, while the AKS-74 has a skeleton buttstock & & wooden handguards (Afghanistan-era look-alike). AKM version has laminated furniture, brown polymer pistol grip, AK-47 bakelite magazine (NO LICENCE REQUIRED)
Generally speaking: In the U.S. the receiver IS the firearm. Decommissioning involves PERMANENTLY destroying the receiver.
But, on an AK47, the receiver is nothing more than a piece of stamped and drilled sheet metal. To recreate a receiver, someone needs only press a new $12 piece of sheet metal (a flat) into a receiver shape:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sDppu3Mcj6E
Once bent, a "kit" with the receiver cut can then be "demilled", and the parts used to build on your bent receiver. Examples of kits:
http://www.copesdist.com/partskits.htm
http://dpharms.com/ak47-kits-c-22.html?osCsid=d4245ca6fb0c8ef43ba7883ea4fb938e
With the right tools, one can demill and rebuild a parts kit in about 10 hours. There are PLENTY of websites that discuss this process. I'm building three kits myself right now.
As far as England goes...I thought BB guns were now illegal to own there also. If that is so, then converting one is kind of moot. Heck I read here awhile back that a fellows place in England was raided by the cops because he had a number of replica firearms. (His neighbors reported him to the cops
)
But really, if some one wants to, can't some one just get a steel tube and make a shotgun? Doesn't seem like it would be very hard.
Any how I'm sure that there is a blackmarket in England (as there is everywhere) where real BG's with some $$ can get real guns if they so choose.
)But really, if some one wants to, can't some one just get a steel tube and make a shotgun? Doesn't seem like it would be very hard.
Any how I'm sure that there is a blackmarket in England (as there is everywhere) where real BG's with some $$ can get real guns if they so choose.
boatbod
Member
I'm not sure whether true "BB" guns are allowed, but air rifles are legal in the UK provided they produce less than 12fpe muzzle energy. Air pistols are also permitted, but they must be limited to 6fpe energy. Anything over these limits requires the owner to hold a firearms certificate (FAC).
Roswell 1847
member
Yep all it takes is two tubes that elescope and a pipe cap for the large a trimmed down roofing nail stuck though a sheet metal washer.
Doesn't even use a spring.
Boy I'd really like to explain every improtu fire arm design I've ever run across in great detail and with scale schematics.
But sure as I did some kid would blow their face off trying to make one.
Some years ago I ran across an article on weapons made by blacksmiths for Fillipino farmers so they could protect themselves from guerrilas and bandits.
There was a really nice .30 carbine caliber machine pistol that used advanced primer ignition, and fed from 30 round mags.
Getting a gun was a problem but snagging an old magazine and a few rounds or reloading empties found laying about was big no problem.
They've been rolling their own down there since gunpowder found its way there with the ancient Chinese pirates.
Interesting about the air guns. That’s not bad fps for a pellet gun; my friend was shooting and killing rats in his back yard with less fps then that.
I became interested in the reality of the gun issue in England so I looked on line for a bit.
There is a lot of info, I just scratched the surface. A few interesting points I came across.
First it seems that in English cities the city officials are HIGHLY offended if their city is revealed to have gun violence in it. It seems even the WORD gun is offensive to them.
Ok, I didn't read anything about converting air guns into real guns. Though it seems a few people were killed with air guns in the last year. (HOW? I don't know)
I did read comments on converting replica guns into firing guns or just using the replica to rob some one by convincing the victim its real.
Yes there are real guns on the streets of England, it seems the drug dealers/ gangs have guns and shoot it out with each other in the big cities on a semi regular basis. (So yes BGs have guns and GGs don't)
One article I read talked about how the murder rate in the US is so much higher then England BUT the article chalked it up to a "cultural difference" because it has all ways been higher, even when people in England were allowed to own guns. Kind of strange but that was their take.
While people are killed with guns, 4 times as many are killed with knives. So I guess this says even if guns are harder to come by, if someone whats to kill a person they will find another method.
Interesting facts go on and on.
I became interested in the reality of the gun issue in England so I looked on line for a bit.
There is a lot of info, I just scratched the surface. A few interesting points I came across.
First it seems that in English cities the city officials are HIGHLY offended if their city is revealed to have gun violence in it. It seems even the WORD gun is offensive to them.
Ok, I didn't read anything about converting air guns into real guns. Though it seems a few people were killed with air guns in the last year. (HOW? I don't know)
I did read comments on converting replica guns into firing guns or just using the replica to rob some one by convincing the victim its real.
Yes there are real guns on the streets of England, it seems the drug dealers/ gangs have guns and shoot it out with each other in the big cities on a semi regular basis. (So yes BGs have guns and GGs don't)
One article I read talked about how the murder rate in the US is so much higher then England BUT the article chalked it up to a "cultural difference" because it has all ways been higher, even when people in England were allowed to own guns. Kind of strange but that was their take.
While people are killed with guns, 4 times as many are killed with knives. So I guess this says even if guns are harder to come by, if someone whats to kill a person they will find another method.
Interesting facts go on and on.
Robert Hairless
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Brittanica implies that the order makes no difference but I think you're correct. There's little sense to the daub unless the wattle comes first.
Wattle I mess up next.
TCB in TN
Member
Sad thing is that w/o ANY ammo, and with very little (or NO) metal, it is just as easy (actually easier) to create an air powered weapon that is much quieter, much more reliable, and can certainly deliver serious damage. Or even using those "strong rubber bands" spoke of above, a bit of tubing, and a sharp dart (read sharpened nail), an industrious individual could make a fine short range weapon that would be just as, if not more accurate than those poorly made guns they seem to be so worried about.
I've seen ads for .22 cal air guns that fire in excess of 1000 fps.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a 230gr. .45ACP round travel at around 900 fps?
Doesn't this mean it is entirely possible to make an air gun that could fire a projectile that would be comparable to a .45 ACP or other pistol caliber, but much quieter?
So why the need to convert an air gun to fire conventional metallic cartridges, when you could get similar results with less noise from large-bored air gun?
It just seems like a wasted effort to me.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a 230gr. .45ACP round travel at around 900 fps?
Doesn't this mean it is entirely possible to make an air gun that could fire a projectile that would be comparable to a .45 ACP or other pistol caliber, but much quieter?
So why the need to convert an air gun to fire conventional metallic cartridges, when you could get similar results with less noise from large-bored air gun?
It just seems like a wasted effort to me.
Roswell 1847
member
There are Air rifles that exceed the .45 ACP in energy and velocity. They aren't much quieter since a blast of high pressure air can be nearly as loud as a muzzle blast.
Also I just remembered a neat historical fact.
After WW2 the German hunters found themselves limited to air rifles for a few years.
They converted some spring piston rifles to Wood Alcohol fueled Deisel Rifles.
A device was fitted to the cylinder which injected vaporised Alcohol into the cylinder just as the sear was tripped. The piston compressed the Alky/Air mixture and it deiseled off.
The effect had been noted when excess oil ignited in high pressure spring piston guns.
I know it works because I've squirted lighter fluid down the bore of a Croman M1 Carbine airgun. The gun sounded like a .22 short only sharper, and the regular .177 BB went completely through a full steel can of dog food.
This can mess up the seals on a good Spring piston gun so I don't recomend experimenting unless you are prepared to repair the damage.
Also I just remembered a neat historical fact.
After WW2 the German hunters found themselves limited to air rifles for a few years.
They converted some spring piston rifles to Wood Alcohol fueled Deisel Rifles.
A device was fitted to the cylinder which injected vaporised Alcohol into the cylinder just as the sear was tripped. The piston compressed the Alky/Air mixture and it deiseled off.
The effect had been noted when excess oil ignited in high pressure spring piston guns.
I know it works because I've squirted lighter fluid down the bore of a Croman M1 Carbine airgun. The gun sounded like a .22 short only sharper, and the regular .177 BB went completely through a full steel can of dog food.
This can mess up the seals on a good Spring piston gun so I don't recomend experimenting unless you are prepared to repair the damage.
Robert Hairless
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Wayne, I forgot to say thank you for your kind compliment.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Roswell 1847
member
You are describing the Hawiian Sling speargun. Simpliest method of spear fishing there is, outside of just gigging the fish that is.
A fellow once showed me a trick using a piece of tubing and a long nail like they used to up up rain gutters.
You just put the nail in the tube then practice till you can flick it fast enough. He could make the nail stick in a cinderblock wall. Pretty accurately too, but he'd been practicing for years.
As long as there are industrial nail driving blank cartridges and lead sinkers no fixed ammo is necessary for a zip gun.
The Mexicans use a small game rifle that fires .177 cast bullets from an airgun barrel using industrial .22 , 6.5 mm , or 7mm blanks.
verb0s
Member
Believe it or not, its possible to modify air guns and airsoft guns to fire factory ammo. Before I turned 18, I've made guns to fire with anything an everything. Except a zip gun, a spud gun, a flamethrower (not legally a flamethrower, anyway)
Some forums that talk about homemade guns uses an airsoft pistol modified to accept homemade paper cartridges backed with steel wool. The plastic pump of the pistol has tow pieces of wire and a 9v battery connected, pul lthe trigger and the electricty flows thru the steel wool, setting off the blackpowder and firing the bullet. I built one when I was 14. I works only once, and can be fashioned from a cheap water pistol. Or multiple times usign estes rocket fuses.
Its also possible to uses a high current to fire a rimfire cartridge (as shown by the mythbusters), and my own tests concluded that usign a capacitor I can fire both rimfire and centerfire cartridges wired up in a dismantled airsoft pistol. I suppose if a person is nuts enough, and have enough metal and a decent soldering iron, using that method that person could build modify an airsoft gun into a firearm. All you need is a steel or copper barrel, and someway to prevent the case from shooting backwards from the breech.
Some forums that talk about homemade guns uses an airsoft pistol modified to accept homemade paper cartridges backed with steel wool. The plastic pump of the pistol has tow pieces of wire and a 9v battery connected, pul lthe trigger and the electricty flows thru the steel wool, setting off the blackpowder and firing the bullet. I built one when I was 14. I works only once, and can be fashioned from a cheap water pistol. Or multiple times usign estes rocket fuses.
Its also possible to uses a high current to fire a rimfire cartridge (as shown by the mythbusters), and my own tests concluded that usign a capacitor I can fire both rimfire and centerfire cartridges wired up in a dismantled airsoft pistol. I suppose if a person is nuts enough, and have enough metal and a decent soldering iron, using that method that person could build modify an airsoft gun into a firearm. All you need is a steel or copper barrel, and someway to prevent the case from shooting backwards from the breech.
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