Deep CCW, small guns, limitations and compromise...

[MyRoad]

I've been trying to figure out how I can carry at my office-based (shirt tucked in) job, so I've been buying guns with that in mind. My last three purchases have been a Glock G36, a Kahr PM9, and a S&W 442.

Having just picked up the 442 this morning, I took all three of these guns to the range today, and did a bit of side-by-side testing with hot defense ammo in each. Although a range report is not my intention for this thread, I will mention that my hands-down favorite was the Kahr, mostly because it has the best trigger (for me), and therefore I am by far the most accurate with it. It's the only one of the three that I'm comfortable shooting at 50'. That said, the other's have their own value and virtues. But the one that really makes me think, is the snubbie 442. It's such a limited gun, that for me it pushes the lower limits of what a gun should be capable of doing. Perhaps I'm being unfair, since these guns are considered BUG's, and perhaps only intended for 0-15 ft. defense.

The 442, and having considered a .32 pocket gun, has made me wonder:

* Do you think that any gun is better than no gun?

* How many of you carry "pocket guns" or BUG's as your primary or only gun?

* Do you have a minimum requirement for a carry gun in terms of caliber and accuracy?

*When you are only carrying a pocket gun, what type of situations do you consider yourself "prepared" for?

 

[glocksman]

For 'deep' concealment the lighter the gun, the better.

I have a 640 Centennial that would be the perfect deep concealment gun except for the weight of the steel frame. Because it's heavy enough to sag the pockets of any garment that I try to carry it in, it's not the ideal 'slip in pocket and go to work' weapon.

My Taurus PT-22 isn't all that much smaller than the Smith, but it's much lighter and carries nicely in a pocket. Its only problem is that the button magazine release is accidentally triggered by sliding around in a pocket.

A heel catch makes more sense on a pocket gun.

I really need to get an alloy J-frame.

 

[Baba Louie]

1. Any gun is better than no gun (most of the time... sometimes Heinlein's theory as espoused in Tunnels in the Sky is germaine)
2. G-26 IWB only carry gun (I don't plan on going to war)
3. 9MM/.38 spl. - man-size target at 25 yds = 4" - 5" max
4. Probably none of them, but I do a whole lot of what-if's in my mind... all the time and I look for cover... all the time.

When I do go out in the desert to shoot, I practice the draw (I also do it at home when no one is around to watch me be weird and paranoid) and backing up a step as I draw and fire two or three shots.

Those are three pretty good choices (never shot the G-36) you've selected. Now its just a matter of practice, practice, practice (and keep your lawyers phone number handy)
Re the 442:

It's such a limited gun, that for me it pushes the lower limits of what a gun should be capable of doing.

Stopping a BG from doing lethal force on you is a good thing. A horde of BG's is another... duck or run.
The snubbie works well in a coat pocket when your right (or left) hand is on it and capable of ruining your jacket while protecting your life. The other choices don't work well in that scenario for obvious reasons.
To my way of thinking the .45 or the 9MM would be first choice IWB with light office acceptable covering garment... but thats just me.

 

[R-Tex12]

Hi, MyRoad -

* Do you think that any gun is better than no gun?
Yep, any gun seems to me to be better than no gun.


* How many of you carry "pocket guns" or BUG's as your primary or only gun?
In the summertime when going for my morning walk or while I'm mowing the yard (when I usually wear shorts & a T-shirt), I usually carry a P32 due to its small size and light weight. When I wear jeans and a shirt, it's generally a Glock 22 or 23, but will soon be a full size 1911.


* Do you have a minimum requirement for a carry gun in terms of caliber and accuracy?
A .32 is about as small as I'd want to go.


*When you are only carrying a pocket gun, what type of situations do you consider yourself "prepared" for?
4. Only those in which any gun is better than no gun! Not really trying to be a smart*** - with my skill level, a P32 would best work for me at "conversational distances" while a larger pistol would allow me to reach out a bit farther.

R-Tex12

 

[cratz2]

I have three guns that I have carried in the last several months. A Kahr P9 Covert (same grip as your PM9 with the longer (standard Kahr) slide, a Taurus 85CHULT and a KelTec P32.

I ALWAYS have the P32 in my pocket. I carry the Kahr probably 60 of the time depending on what I'm doing and what I'm wearing. The Taurus is more of a new toy though with the Kahr being slimmer and holding more rounds of more potent ammo and not being ported, there's really no reason to ever carry the Taurus.

The Kahrs are very nice guns... As you mentioned, very nice triggers (this coming from a died in the wool 1911 guy), are impressively accurate, the poly guns are about as lightweight as can be expected, and they fit my hand reasonably well for a very trim plastic gun.

Is any gun better than no gun? For most shooters, probably yes. I wouldn't want to go out with a single shot 22LR. And I'd rather not rely on a Jennings/Bryco, but even then you are probably going to get one good shot and if you make it count... With very few exceptions, I'd rather have any gun than no gun.

For accuracy requirements, I'd carry any gun that was 99% (hopefully a bit better) reliable with my carry ammo that I could keep a double tap in 5" at 7 yards. Much less than that and I would probably just not do double taps. Though it's nice, I really don't consider 25 yard accuracy a requirement at all on a less-than-full-size defensive handgun. If the guy is 75 feet away from you and there is any sort of cover, your primary obligation should probably be to seek that cover. If you're out in the middle of nowhere with three bad guys at differing distances, you should have brought something bigger than your P32 or NAA Mini.

I don't see a reason for every person with a CCW not to have a P32, P3AT, Guardian etc... Something that is reliable and very easily slips into any pocket. I know some guys that always carry a 1911 or a larger Glock but on at least one occasion, every single one of them has left the gun behind. For obne reason or another. But the P32/P3AT is truly an ALWAYS gun and I can't help but think that 3 or 4 rounds of 32 or 380 is going to make most random agressors go pick on someone else. 7 rounds of +P 9mm from a Kahr is that much more of a deterant.

 

[critter]

I have decided that I will not go less than 9mm. I bought a Kahr MK9 for an 'always' and a BUG. Good trigger, good sights (for a 'pocket' gun), quite accurate for what it is and 100% reliable. I'll put up with the weight-just don't like the tupperware guns. My 'real' gun is a Kimber Compact stainless .45.

 

[Wildalaska]

For the past several years (in town) I have either carried a NAA 22 or a Seecamp 32 95% of the time and have never felt unarmed.

WildaguninthepocketAlaska

 

[mtnbkr]

1: Yes, as long as you're proficient with it.

2: A P32 is my primary. It's just too easy to carry and I don't have to worry about people seeing it.

3: No on caliber. As long as you are comfortable with the gun. As far as accuracy goes, I prefer something that can shoot 2" or better at 5yds for a mouse gun and 1" or better at 10yds for larger guns.

4: With a mouse gun, I feel I'm prepared for face to face confrontations. Anything further away, and I'm going to duck and run (assuming my family is in the clear).

I'm toying with the idea of getting a Kahr PM9 or PM40 so I'll have something in a "real" caliber that won't be a pain to carry.

I'm in the process of working up a warm handload for carry in the P32. MY goal is a 60gr hollowpoint (gold dot or xtp) that will penetrate at least 10" while expanding reliably. Either one at 1000-1100fps should do the trick.

Chris

 

[Andrew Rothman]

I carry a full-sized 9mm Ruger P95 with two 15-round mags. Smartcarry.

 

[cratz2]

Oh yeah... as far as a minimum caliber... I don't know that I'd feel adequately protected with a 25, but I'd feel better with either a 32 or a 22LR than nothing at all.

C-a-p32-in-the-pocket-is-worth-two-1911s-at-home-CRATZ

 

[MyRoad]

Well, to answer some of my own questions: So far, .380 is as small as I've gone - I have a SIG P232 which is very narrow and light, but a bit too long for me to carry in a pocket. I'm considering an NAA Guardian .380 -- anyone have one of those? I suppose the KelTec P32 is much lighter, and there's value in that.

I would like to stick with 9mm if possible, because I find a significant gap between a 9mm +P and and a .380. After firing the PM9 and the 232 back to back, they seem in completely different leagues.

When I was at the range today, I did all my shooting from 25 feet, and I did 5 shot groups with each gun. With the G36 and the PM9 I could keep all the rounds in a 5" ring, which is my personal minimum requirement. It was my first time out with the 442, but at that distance I was on the paper, but not all of them in the ring. If I picked up the pace, things go worse with the 442, and the G36 groups would open up, but the PM9 was pretty consistent. The only real benefit of the 442 for me is the option of shooting from a pocket, and the fact that it's the least likely to misfeed or misfire. The G36's best attribute is that it's a .45, and I love .45's. I have had several FTE's from it, about three in 300 rounds. Could be my fault, since I've been experimenting with different ways of gripping the gun.

 

[Ford]

Check out the Kahr PM9. It is a small gun in a major caliber. To my knowledge it is the smallest/lightest 9mm on the market. You won't even know it is on in an IWB holster or just drop it in your pocket.

 

[Jeff Thomas]

Look into ... Thunderwear. Excellent for deep cover. They'll never know, once you get used to wearing it. Not a fast draw, but if you need deep cover, that is one thing you sacrifice.

Yes, any gun is better than no gun. 9mm is my minimum. I'm prepared for situations where I won't be killed within the 2 to 3 second draw time ... not optimal, but better than no chance at all.

Regards from TX

 

[Garand'06]

* Do you think that any gun is better than no gun?

* How many of you carry "pocket guns" or BUG's as your primary or only gun?

* Do you have a minimum requirement for a carry gun in terms of caliber and accuracy?

*When you are only carrying a pocket gun, what type of situations do you consider yourself "prepared" for?

1: YES

2: Unless carrying my .45 (just to PO my wife ) my .22 NAA mini is ALWAYS in my pocket.

3: Caliber, No. Accuracy: Not really, as long as I'm comfortable with it.

4: Basically, I feel it is only good for getting the BG off my back long enough to run like heck.

 

[Shmackey]

I did a very similar side-by-side test a little while ago (thanks again, Morgan). Kahr PM9, Colt .380, and a 642 or 442 (I forget) snubbie.

First of all, I normally shoot fairly large guns with great triggers, so I couldn't shoot any of these worth a damn. That said, the Kahr and Colt were far easier to shoot than the S&W was. And the S&W had had a trigger job. I decided on the Kahr: 9mm vs, .380.

And then a couple of days later I traded a Kimber for a customized Colt Pocket Nine instead. The Pocket Nine is very, very similar to a Kahr PM9, but the receiver is aluminum. And it's a Colt.

Anyway, until I get my Commander back, the Pocket Nine is my only carry gun, and I think pocket carry makes a whole lot of sense. Even when I get back the 1911, I doubt it will see much carry time.

 

[denfoote]

Small carry guns

My lovely wife carries a Kel-Tec P32. I have thouroughly evaluated this pistol for reliability and function and I trust it to defend the most important person in my life!!

Recently, I have had occasion to obtain the P3AT, the P32's larger cousin. After rigorously wringing out this little spitwad, I have pronounced it worthy of daily carry. I now carry the same as my primary defensive weapon. It is light and highly concealable. The 9mm kurz cartridge has enough power to allow me to escape most situations that I may encounter in a urban environment.
Of course, being a wise carpenter, I have more than one hammer in my tool box!! If the expected situation requires it, I have a 1911A1 at my disposal!!

 

[SapperLeader]

Im going back to school right now, but im starting to put together a rig for office wear and formal clothes for after graduation. Personally, Im leaning towards a j-frame on the ankle, or a p-32 in the pocket, in conjuction with a kahr of some sorts in a tuckable iwb rig. My reasoning is a .32 that is immediatly accesable, and a slim, compact 9mm that may take a few more seconds to access will cover all my bases. I should point out though, that in casual dress, I wear a fullsize pistol(currently my xd-9) and a backup s&w 642 in a pocket holster every day.

 

[jetman]

I don't ususally carry unless I'm on call at work and have to go into the "hood" where I work late at night. If cold enough for good cover I'll take my Sig P229 or Wilson LW Stealth SDS under a coat or sweatshirt. If it's warmer out and harder to hide I'll take my Beretta Tomcat (Inox) loaded with Mag Safe Frangible ammo in a pocket holster for best concealment. I hope to GOD I never have to use any of them but at least I'm prepared. As the old saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried out by 6. I just wish Ohio would EVENTUALLY get the CCW laws in line with the rest of the country.

 

[XavierBreath]

* Do you think that any gun is better than no gun?
Yes. But brains and no gun is better than gun and no brains.

* How many of you carry "pocket guns" or BUG's as your primary or only gun?
I carry a Para C6.45LDA. Some might call it a pocket gun or BUG due to it's size. I say 7 rounds of .45ACP is no BUG. I also carry a spare magazine. A person carries what he can. In the past I carried a KelTec P32 because I was unable to conceal any other pistol. I have also carried a 9mm in the past. As far as leather, I like a Don Hume JIT, but will compromise to a SmartCarry, which I prefer over Thunderwear. http://www.smartcarry.com/

* Do you have a minimum requirement for a carry gun in terms of caliber and accuracy?
My desire is a caliber that starts with a four. In a defensive shooting, I want less shots fired but I want the ones fired to have maximum effect. My requirement is a gun. As far as the accuracy, I consider that a total handling package. I want to be able to hit a paper plate at 15 yards using flash sighting from concealment. Most pistols are capable of this. I don't need pinpoint accuracy.

*When you are only carrying a pocket gun, what type of situations do you consider yourself "prepared" for?
No matter what, you are only halfway prepared for ANY situation where you will have to pull a gun. That's because you are not expecting the confrontation, and the criminal has planned it most of the time. Again the brain is what makes a person prepared, not a gun. The gun is a tool to escape death by incapacitating attackers. To answer your questions directly, though, With 12 rounds of .45ACP, training and a dash of luck, I feel adequately able to deal with three assailants who are armed as long as I have the gun in my hand, cover and enough luck to be facing attackers with typical criminal spray and pray techniques. It's a matter of tactics, self-control and use of your tools, not blazing away an entire magazine.

Just my two cents guys, no intent to incite a war.