Defective Ammo: Winchester 9mm JHP "Personal Protection"

[stevemis]

Just a quick note/warning. Yesterday, I purchased several boxes of Winchester USA9JHP Personal Protection 9mm ammo. This is our normal 9mm carry load, and I've bought lots of it in the past.

This evening, I was loading up a couple of magazines and noticed the brass didn't look very nice. Almost every round had scuff marks and/or corrosion. I then noticed a round had two very deep gouges in the case, at which point I unloaded everything and took some pictures.

I've only looked at two boxes thus far. Both are labeled:

Carton No. CT512
E125667
K6673

Update: It turns out the lot # is pressure stamped inside the flap on the box. It's lot # 3 CCD51 or 300D51 - the stamp is very light.

These were purchased from Dick's Sporting Goods on July 23, 2009 on Capital Boulevard in Raleigh, NC.

I've sent an email to Winchester.

The round with the deep gouges is the first one on the left in the picture.

 

[kingpin008]

That first case almost looks like the brass was partially crushed or creased during loading, rather than gouged. Any chance at getting some better, closer-up pics of it?

And most definitely keep us informed in regards to Winchester's response. I can't imagine they'd give you any hassle, it's pretty obvious the ammo is damaged.

 

[stevemis]

I need a camera that can do better macro work. This one just doesn't cut it. These two shots are the best I can do with my current setup.

It almost looks as if someone tried to take a bite out of it!

I can imagine this cartridge got damaged during loading, but almost every other cartridge has circular scuffs on the brass, and/or corrosion. This ammo, quite frankly, looks like Bubba Reloads, not factory ammo.

I'm not very confident in Winchester JHP anymore. I've been carrying & shooting this stuff for several years, and it cycles perfectly in all of my 9mm's. Sadly, I think it's time to investigate offerings from other manufacturers. This defective ammo really torques me off, because the store has a 3 box/day limit (my wife picked up 3 more boxes this morning) and I could have bought usable 45 or 223 instead.

 

[stevemis]

This seems appropriate.

 

[kingpin008]

While it never hurts to explore other brands, I wouldn't be so quick to write off Winchester this quickly. Any large manufacturing company has issues with the product now and again, and if you've been buying and using this same ammo for years without coming up with a dud, I'd say it's fair that it's a one-time thing.

Give 'em a chance to make it right, and see how things go from there. If it is a one-time fluke thing (and I can't see how it wouldn't be) you've already got a load that you know works - why switch things up needlessly?

 

[Oyeboten]

Is Winchester 'outsourcing' to Red China now?

 

[Phydeaux642]

Is it possible that someone could have switched the ammo for some bad reloads? Just sayin'.

 

[stevemis]

Is it possible that someone could have switched the ammo for some bad reloads? Just sayin'.

I doubt it. The guy at the counter said he unloaded the big shipment the night before. It's also all headstamped correctly and nothing is mixed. The bullets are also all JHP and look like the last batch I bought.

I also noticed the brass looks wavy, and the bullet base shape and crimp is very visible especially compared to my last batch (about a year old) ... almost like the case material is really thin. I wonder if Winchester is cutting some expenses by thinning the brass?

 

[danprkr]

Is it possible that someone could have switched the ammo for some bad reloads?

I was wondering that very thing. Where did you get it? At a big box store (Walmart etc) it's probably a Winchester problem. At some guys table in the local gun store who knows? Last time I checked ammo didn't come with seals on the boxes to indicate tampering so I question the source.

 

[stevemis]

Where did you get it?

Dick's Sporting Goods. They're a pretty big chain here in the Southeast...

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/

 

[danprkr]

Dick's Sporting Goods. They're a pretty big chain here in the Southeast...

Yeah, they're growing into my part of the world. We just got one a few blocks from my house, and there are several here in the central TX area. I'd be leaning on Winchester fairly heavily then. I suppose there could be a rogue employee, but that's beginning to stretch the concept.

 

[rbernie]

Looks like they're simply making ammo too fast, trying to fill the demand. Contact Winchester and let them deal with it. They'll send you replacement ammo, without a doubt.

 

[Trebor]

This is the Winchester White Box JHP's labeled "Personal Protection", right?

I would NEVER recommend that ammo for self defense use. The Winchester White Box line is their budget ammo line. It's fine for plinking and target practice, but should be avoided for self defense use.

The reason is that it is a *Budget* ammo line. As a budget ammo line the assembly is entirely automated, as is the QC. That means no human being actually lies eyes on the ammo at any point in the process, until you open up a new box yourself.

The other disadvantage of the budget line is that it does NOT use a "low flash" propellent. Instead it uses a cheaper, standard propellent. This means that if you shoot this ammo in low light you'll get a larger muzzle flash. This can temporarily blind you. And, since most defensive shootings occur in low light, this is a valid concern.

The only reason they market this as "Personal Protection" instead of "Target/Range" ammo is because they load it with JHP bullets instead of FMJ bullets. But, those JHP's are an older generation bullet as well.

Just because something has a JHP bullet and is labelled as "Personal Protection" does not mean it is the best choice, or even a good choice, for that purpose. Between the lack of QC and the non low-flash powder, I'd skip this for defensive use and go with a better brand that has better QC, low flash powder, and more up to date tech for the bullet itself.

 

[Guns and more]

The Winchester White Box line is their budget ammo line.

Maybe so, but I've never had a problem like that.

 

[21bubba]

I use it on all4 of the 9mm's that i own, and all of them love it.
As far as SD use goes, I don't want to be shot with it.

 

[danprkr]

As far as SD use goes, I don't want to be shot with it.

Which caused me to briefly wonder, "What ammo does he want to be shot with?"

 

[stevemis]

Which caused me to briefly wonder, "What ammo does he want to be shot with?"

Lester's Ammo!

http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=5782041&postcount=4

 

[stevemis]

Looks like they're simply making ammo too fast, trying to fill the demand. Contact Winchester and let them deal with it. They'll send you replacement ammo, without a doubt.

Winchester is issuing a UPS call tag to pick up the ammo. Initially they wanted to send me a Winchester Gift Card so I can re-purchase their ammo. I explained that I was able to amass 8 boxes of this product due to sheer luck AND two trips to the store on separate days due to rationing, and that they should issue a complete refund OR a replace the product. Gift cards tied to specific products which will likely be unavailable is not acceptable.

Supposedly I'll know more in 3 weeks and will update this thread. If I don't have resolution in 4 weeks, I'll call American Express and let them deal with it.

FYI Dick's Sporting Goods does not accept returns or exchanges on ammunition or firearms.

 

[ljnowell]

This is the Winchester White Box JHP's labeled "Personal Protection", right?

I would NEVER recommend that ammo for self defense use. The Winchester White Box line is their budget ammo line. It's fine for plinking and target practice, but should be avoided for self defense use.

The reason is that it is a *Budget* ammo line. As a budget ammo line the assembly is entirely automated, as is the QC. That means no human being actually lies eyes on the ammo at any point in the process, until you open up a new box yourself.

The other disadvantage of the budget line is that it does NOT use a "low flash" propellent. Instead it uses a cheaper, standard propellent. This means that if you shoot this ammo in low light you'll get a larger muzzle flash. This can temporarily blind you. And, since most defensive shootings occur in low light, this is a valid concern.

The only reason they market this as "Personal Protection" instead of "Target/Range" ammo is because they load it with JHP bullets instead of FMJ bullets. But, those JHP's are an older generation bullet as well.

Just because something has a JHP bullet and is labelled as "Personal Protection" does not mean it is the best choice, or even a good choice, for that purpose. Between the lack of QC and the non low-flash powder, I'd skip this for defensive use and go with a better brand that has better QC, low flash powder, and more up to date tech for the bullet itself.

Yes it is a budget ammo line, but that doesnt mean that it doesnt work. If the OP tested it and it is reliable in his firearm and accurate, go for it. I have seen expansion tests done on this ammo (albeit redneck backyard tests) and they were favorable. My own self defense ammo cost me about 20 dollars /100 for my g21. Cheap can be good. Of course, I load my own.

 

[ants]

In the reloading world we call that 'buckling'.

As rbernie suggests, it is generally the result of poor Quality Control during the assembly process.

It is often the result of improperly adjusted seating and/or crimping dies. I would sincerely doubt that the case is made thinner. The bulging of the case around the bullet would disappear if the case wall is thinner.

One possibility: Bullet diameter should be 0.356 or 0.3565 inches, but if .357" or .358" the out of spec bullet not only bulges the case around the bullet, but jambs the case mouth into the crimping die and buckles the case.

Keep us posted.

 

[rbernie]

<thread drift>

The other disadvantage of the budget line is that it does NOT use a "low flash" propellent. Instead it uses a cheaper, standard propellent. This means that if you shoot this ammo in low light you'll get a larger muzzle flash. This can temporarily blind you. And, since most defensive shootings occur in low light, this is a valid concern.

It absolutely is. To quantify that concern, I have shot several thousand rounds of the 147gr WWB PP ammo in low light conditions and determined that the muzzle flash is not distracting or debilitating for me, using my pistols.

The up side to the 'economy' PP ammo is that us'n mere mortals can shoot it frequently. I consider the reliability data that I collect by shooting my SD ammo frequently to be of greater priority to me than anything else.

</thread drift>

 

[KenWP]

If you shoot off those banged up rounds the dings disappear and it looks perfect after wards. Even with Remington ammo I have found rifle loads that were dinged. As long as they feed into the chamber go for it.

 

[blutarsky]

If you shoot off those banged up rounds the dings disappear and it looks perfect after wards. Even with Remington ammo I have found rifle loads that were dinged. As long as they feed into the chamber go for it.

 

[scndactive]

If you shoot off those banged up rounds the dings disappear and it looks perfect after wards. Even with Remington ammo I have found rifle loads that were dinged. As long as they feed into the chamber go for it.

Maybe some other reloaders can chime in here. It is my understanding that a ''dinged'', creased case can significantly raise case pressure by lowering the amount of space available for the gases to expand, possibly resulting in a ka-boom.

 

[ants]

Shooting dinged cases...

My humble opinion:

Depends upon the powder charge and case volume. Factory rounds might not explode, but no need to take the chance. The OP did the right thing to contact the manufacturer.

Yes, minor dings fireform easily and we do it all the time, but usually not a buckled case. That goes in the recycle bin if it doesn't straighten out in the full-length sizing die.

Furthermore, hazard arises should they not go fully into battery while you're blasting. It's not the end of the world, but not to be taken lightly either.