Deputy at school during shooting

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Personally I think this man was somewhat of a coward. But honestly he knew nothing of the situation. Was it one shooter? 3? What were they armed with? WHERE were they? This was a big school. If this guy was simply armed with a Dept issued sidearm, he had little chance in an active shooter scenario against an attacker with an AR. And we all know it if we stop thinking with emotion and start thinking with our rational brains. But now he’s going to live every day knowing he could have done something and young people died from his inaction. Don’t be surprised if we hear about this guy committing suicide later on.

SROs in that district will be openly carrying long guns- ARs of course- as a move to increase public confidence for the next few months at least. This is SOP for school security personnel in Israel as well.
While I appreciate the tactical disadvantage of engaging a school attacker/ attackers with a handgun, that's the job. If you can't or won't do it, get another job.

 

[Jenrick]

If you can't or won't do it, get another job.

I think that's the most succinct way of putting it. I have no fault with him as a human being, you never know how you will react until you actually face the elephant. As a young officer in a busy part of town in a major city I found out pretty quick what kind of person I am. Unfortunately a lot of officers from small agencies never have the opportunity as a young rookie to see what kind of person they are, and they go their whole career thinking they are that kind of person, until they are suddenly thrust into a situation like this. Rather than learning this about themselves as new rookies, with a veteran by their side to limit the damage their inaction causes. Human nature is not to run to gunfire and screaming, but to run away. It takes a lot conditioning and a special personality to be that one that does run to it. Also people change, he may have been a meat eater as a younger man, and suddenly having a family who depends on him changed things. It takes a lot more introspection then you'd think to look inside yourself and walk away from your career, your livelihood, your family's means of support, on a one in a million eventuality.

This is a perfect example of why I don't think simply introducing guns into schools will be of a particular help in the future. Here was someone trained and equipped to deal with the problem, and he simply didn't go in. I don't expect an armed parent to go hunting in the halls, I expect them to take their family and get the heck out of there. I don't expect an armed teacher to go hunting, I expect them to hunker down just like toivo described in his post.

The military and LE spend a lot of time trying to instill into its members the ability to go into harms way, even when the odds are dramatically stacked against you. It's unreasonable to expect a citizen to do that. For every chest thumping keyboard commando I've read talking about how they'd have saved the day with their EDC, I know the reality is that a very very small percentage when faced with the actual prospect of facing another human being in deadly combat by making a completely voluntary choice (going in and hunting) will actually do so. On the flip side I know there are those out there who have seen the elephant (far worse then I have), and even though they may only have a 5 shot snubbie they will take the fight to the enemy with the will to prevail. If you've never ran to the sound of gunfire or the like, all you have is the hope for what you might do.

-Jenrick

 

[Steve S.]

I have read that he was eligible for retirement so he did (instead of going thru the suspension/ investigation/ (possible) termination process). I don’t know if he was a coward, cautious without backup or just wanted to retire without bullet holes in his body; I think that some people will charge into danger, some will freeze and some will run. It may be reckless to judge him with what you think your actions will be; there is what you think you will do and what you will do - sometimes they do not match. All of us have heard someone brave talk up until the heat us turned on - then the mouse starts squeaking.

 

[edwardware]

The amount of online venom spewed towards this deputy is disgusting.

No, I don't think so. It was his duty to go in and do his best to stop the attack; he didn't, and people probably died because if his choice.

No one every truly knows how they will react when faced with extreme stress and potential death.

Irrelevant. Going in was his job, and he failed.

 

[Hokkmike]

I am not going to judge this man. God and his conscience will be enough.

 

[barnbwt]

Devil's Advocate:

It may not have been a matter of courage, unless he's on camera wetting himself. He was not in the building, showed up a few minutes into it, and in all likelihood the gunman was aiming at the door, waiting for it to open. We usually defer to individual judgment in shooting events, we probably should here as well.

The more pertinent fact is that at least several people were in a position and place of mind to do something, were doing something (holding doors, shielding students, charging the attacker) but had no effective means to end the threat available to them.

 

[RecoilRob]

I've been hearing tons of drivel on TV about how "teachers aren't trained to carry weapons," etc., but I think of it this way: I'm a teacher (community college). I have a CCW. I have my pick of several small pistols that can be concealed so that no one will ever know I'm carrying them. I can shoot. I'm not any kind of tactical ninja or anything, and I'm not about to go hunting the hallways for an active shooter. If (God forbid) there were to be an active shooter incident at my school, I would follow the protocol they teach us: Run, Hide, Fight.

1. First, get myself and the students out of the building and headed for the treeline. (We're a rural campus.)
2. If that's not possible, shelter in place: lock the door, close the blinds, get everybody down on the floor against the walls, out of the line of sight of the doorway.
3. If somebody comes through the door with the intention of slaughtering everybody in the room, I believe that my students and I would have a much better chance of survival if I had a pistol in my hands -- even a pocket .380 -- instead of a chair or a fire extinguisher.

That's the armed teacher scenario that I envision: last resort in the face of imminent death. I found it bitterly ironic that when we got our active-shooter training, the campus officer who was narrating the slide show for us, telling us how fire extinguishers make great weapons, had a Glock 17 on his belt.

I would be happy to take any training that would allow me to carry at my job, especially if the county paid for my ammo. I would gladly take any qualification deemed appropriate, and if I failed it, I would keep training until I passed. But I live in New York State, and the day we get armed teachers is the day that unicorns will fly out of my butt singing the Hallelujah Chorus.

This is also what I picture as an 'armed teacher' scenario where he or she basically is performing self defense and NOT 'going hunting' for an active shooter. If you happen to be where the action is....respond, but otherwise don't be expected to 'run to the gunfire'. Such a deal would work well if enough personnel were armed that the chances of a shooter encountering one is fairly high....just one in the whole school wouldn't work like this and would need that person to respond and attack...which takes a special kind of person.

About the Deputy who chose not to engage....perhaps he was well aware of his inadequacy with his sidearm and took the safe way out? I had the regular opportunity to shoot with a large southern Florida Sheriffs Dept. back in the late '80's and can say for certain that all but maybe three of them were more of a hazard to the general populace than they would have been to such a school shooter. They were absolutely horrible with their sidearms and struggled to qualify even after multiple attempts. This qualification was pretty simple....and with a Colt Delta with full house 10mm's I managed 248, 250, and 249 (on a 250 max with 180 needed to qual). The Firearms Instructor had invited me to the qualification to shame his guys...and he did regularly with 'He's a freakin' CIVILIAN for xxxx's sake! And he's kicking your ass!' They weren't happy but the few that DID take their firearms seriously were good men and I've no doubt that if one of them had been that Deputy outside the school that at least they'd have tried to intervene. The rest of them....probably not.

 

[Hokie_PhD]

This is not the same thing as self-defense. It is not an individual teacher choosing to carry a gun for his/her own defense; it is known and understood that the gun will be used to defend others, the same as an LEO's handgun. So what would be the liability issues if the armed teacher were to wound or kill an innocent person (or even a mass murderer if, say, CNN chose to defend him?)

Actually you’re wrong.
Had I been carrying when my class was shot up if I was carrying I would have animed on the door so the gunman couldn’t come in and shoot us.

Being in a defensive position protecting yourself and others in the room is one thing that makes sense.

I wouldn’t have gone out to end the situation. Too much risk of being shot by the police. But being in a position to take out the bad guy before he kills you is a right we shouldn’t be denied.

 

[shootstraight57]

We were trained to go to where the shots were fired during an active shooting! Never stand outside and wait for the shooter. This action of running to where the shots are fired minimizes the casualty rate.

 

[Bigmike79]

I GUARANTEE you he had a better chance than the kids or the unarmed teachers who died defending them.

It shouldn't be sugar coated.

He's a COWARD.

I'm sure he can justify what he did, at least to himself.

I doubt he'll miss a night's sleep.

I have to agree. This wasn't some guy standing outside with a carry permit and a mouse gun in his pocket. This was a cop that had a duty sized weapon. This is a man that took an Oath of honor to serve and protect but didn't = COWARD

I wonder if he had access to a patrol shotgun in proximity????

 

[AlexanderA]

This is not the same thing as self-defense. It is not an individual teacher choosing to carry a gun for his/her own defense; it is known and understood that the gun will be used to defend others, the same as an LEO's handgun.

From a liability standpoint, the armed teachers would have to be deputized, and given law enforcement standing. As an "additional duty," this would entail an increase in their pay. Would the school districts be willing to fund the training, the guns and ammo, and the extra pay for the armed teachers? Or would the federal government have to step in and provide the money?

 

[Robert]

This is a bit too far a field for THR. While this new information is disgusting it is not really in topic for us.

 

[hso]

he decided

We need more information, which will probably come out in the civil suits, about what the written protocols were and whether they covered this situation or whether they were followed or not or whether there were orders given to take a position and wait for backup or...

The point being, this revelation is explosive and there will be many people interested in the rest of the story.