Designing a New Rifle Platform

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TrickyDick

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I have been designing a new rifle platform, and I'm not exactly sure how to go about it. I am not AutoCAD saavy, and I'm hesitant about giving up the specs and designs to have it done on AutoCAD. How would I go about Patenting it and etc.?


As for the Rifle; The initial prototype is based on the 7.62x39 due to its high taper and cost. The action consists of a long stroke, rotating bolt, with select fire between Auto, Semi & Bolt action. It's not an AK variant. I'm looking to get the accuracy of an AR with the reliability of an AK. The SIG556 has flaws, so let's avoid that whole convo now. eventually I would like to utilize the 5.56x45, and maybe the 5.45x39. If you have questions or answers, they'd be much appreciated. Thanks, TD.
 
Okay I am intrigued...I love engineering, designing things, and dreaming up new ideas.

I don't know much about patents, inventions, etc. I would imagine that you'd need pretty detailed drawings to get a patent, but I dunno. I will say Autocad is pretty easy to learn, especially in 2D. You could also try google sketchup. There is a free version and you can model in 3D the various parts and how they interact. There are also a variety of other mechanical engineering programs that not only can you model the pieces, but model their motion relative to one another...I think that would be helpful for designing the action...to show how things move. If you are really not tech-savvy, you could PM me some hand drawn sketches and I will convert them to CAD for you :) I promise not to steal your ideas.

Regarding the Rifle itself....out of curiosity, what application do you envision for it? What is the benefit of the bolt action option? I presume some increase in accuracy, but don't know what scenario a person would opt for an arguably negligible increase in accuracy at the cost of slower rate of fire. The stoner design in the AR is already pretty accurate due to the rotating bolt that doesn't really move until the bullet is long gone anyway, how does locking the bolt increase accuracy?

Sounds very interesting!
 
If you're serious, and you actually know what you're doing, go see a patent lawyer.

Then, learn autocad. Computer drafting and modeling is something you MUST be able to do in today's age of engineering. It's a MUST. Unless you're a 71 year old machinist about ready to retire from a shop where they have designers to do the drawings for you, it's a must.

Be warned, a patent is for something original. Not to sound harsh, but the fact you're saying "reliability of this, with accuracy of that" makes me skeptical. Good luck.
 
You will also really need to produce a working prototype and I am not sure just how the ATF would look at someone designing a full auto firearm and producing plans for it without a manufacturers license. And of course actually making a new full auto would be a real bump in the road.

As Voltia said...if you are serious then you need to get the education...
 
Making FA samples is doable, you just need a FFL and pay your $500 SOT every year.

It's actually not very hard.

BSW
 
Making FA samples is doable, you just need a FFL and pay your $500 SOT every year.

It's actually not very hard.

You also have to pay ITAR fees, legally create a real business, pay taxes and do everything else that would normally be associated with any other business (zoning requirements, have a official place of business with hours, liability insurance etc) That is quite an expense just to design and test a rifle.

The OP could also take it to a SOT who is already licensed and everything and contract with them to make the working example, but idk what that would do to his patent application.
 
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This is my plan essentially; Design part by part, then bring the designs of certain parts to different machine shops. This minimizes the risk of the idea being stolen. after each part is made, it is assembled, tested, and once the quirks were settled, I would then set up demonstrations with firearm manufacturers. The patent would come after the quirks were figured out...
 
Your best bet is to survey the last 100 years of self loading rifle and pistol design to ensure what has been designed wasn't already tried and discarded. Some things can be tried again with new technology to make them affordable, or actually work at a different level of dynamics - but the field has largely been covered. There have been hundreds, if not thousands of engineers searching for new designs for a very long time. And there are hundreds, if not thousands of law clerks who will do that search to prove the concept never previously existed and is definably "unique" under the law.

If there is any question of it, and money is involved, then prepare to defend it.

After that - you need a working prototype that has already gone thru some development and has basic reliability to demonstrate the new principle and it's uniqueness. You need a patent lawyer, a machininst on retainer, a range to shoot on, and a ready source of ammo. Not being knowledgeable about any of it means depending on others. Others won't do it for funsies, they want money.

As for the features, an AR with cutaway mag well to take AK mags, and an adjustable gas regulator can accomplish what's been mentioned. That could be done with an MGI Hydra lower, ASA non reciprocating handle upper, and aftermarket gas port valve. As for it being long action - the trend for the last one hundred years is to make it shorter.

Ideas are unfortunately, a dime a dozen. What makes the money is bringing an idea to the market as a reliable product thru existing channels of distribution, or direct to the public. Doing that makes the money - the patent rights and their value are completely dependent on that potential alone.

All said and done, this rifle would have to offer a magnitude of performance not currently available. That really means being able to get hits on target substantially more often than what is currently done. Actions don't get it done - the human operator does, and what has done the largest increase in hits on target in the last twenty years is red dot optics. That's been the #1 improvement in combat rifles, and driven most of the changes we see in the M16 making it into the current M4. Whether an action has it's motive operation located on the barrel or in the bolt carrier is basically moot - either will work. Putting bullets on target is the real problem, and doing so reliably out to 500 yards the goal.

Entirely why the 7.62x39 isn't the best choice. Effectively, it could be improved, but ballistically, it's a .30 in a short case, underpowered and dynamically limited. The adoption of it as the basic cartridge reflects poorly on the design concept, simply because there are so many better ones out there. And they are in current use, which can't be said for the X39 and modern armies.

Eliminating the brass case is the next quantum leap in firearms, and we're likely a decade from it - just because it takes time to change the infrastructure more than simply produce one. There are already hundreds of working prototypes already owned by the government, and getting it to work means adding 40% more ammunition to the soldiers load - with corresponding increase in hits. The additional advantages of reducing battlefield noise, signature, logistics, and recycling salvage for the military are incentives in their own right. It highlights again that the major improvements in firearms aren't in actions, but related to hit probability. Increase that, and the mavens of marketing will beat a path to your door.
 
I'm a mechanical designer, and i know how to use Cad and most of today's software. I was going to say that id be more than willing to help show you how to use the system in detail or to just help you clean up what you got. then i seen how far you was from Ohio.

I don't know how to go about getting a permit on making the gun. but i do know that getting one for a commercial building and all the work inside it is a pain. so id imagine that it would be harder for a gun, especially for full auto. but before you get something set up with someone to look at it. if its anything like getting a permit for anything else. your going to need a lot of detailed drawings and make it look like nothing done before.

this should set you in the right direction. and it will be expensive.
http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/howtopat.htm

good luck and sorry for the long message.
 
Well, I wasnt exactly coming for advice, but more opinion. I know what i'm doing, and believe me, i'm not trying to reinvent the wheel. Its just another platform people can turn to in lieu of Ar's AK's, FAL's etc. theres thousands of revolvers and pistols that are similar but not exactly the same. I appreciate the input and interest, not so much the negative tone of pessimism. But this has been in the works for awhile, and honestly, if only 1 is ever built, it'll be my unique rifle.
 
It's not a negative tone of pessimism. It's just the facts, but some perceive them as obstacles to a goal.

Good point made about the licensing - to actually produce a working full auto prototype, the BATF will be intimately involved. That's a fact. If there is any possibility that the design can be readily modified from semi to full, their opinion prevails.

There's nothing wrong with entertaining a new concept and having some fun along the way, but the inherent nature of the process is much the same as inventing a new variety of internal combustion engine. One working prototype may garner some recognition, the reality is that lot's of people have been working on that for 100 years, and the existing technology doesn't even support Wankels or sleeve valve models well in all regards - fuel economy and emissions have serious impacts.

As a household project, it can be a lot of fun, as a commercial venture, there are serious challenges that must be overcome before the project will even be considered by a manufacturer. If that sounds pessimistic, it's being triggered by internal realizations. Others might simply consider them hurdles in the race to victory.

I assembled an AR15 6.8 dissipator on the kitchen table, I'm planning to put up a garage, and then build a car in it, frame up. I see hurdles where others might see obstacles. Perspective is the only thing that can make it harder than it actually is.
 
Patents are a nightmare. The system has essentially collapsed under its own weight in the past decade, and is patrolled by "patent trolls" looking for an excuse to sue you. But aside from this, you're going to have to show that your design is sufficiently new, useful and not obvious. In this case you'll be facing 200 years of rifle designs that include virtually anything you can imagine.

So basically, if you're really serious about it don't just go to an IP lawyer, go to a certified patent lawyer (who's passed the patent bar) who has experience with firearm patents.

The very fact that your idea is close enough to existing designs that you can use terms such as "bolt action" and "long stroke" and "semi" tells me it may not be new enough. But like I said, see someone who knows about firearm patents and designs. It will cost you, but that's the only advice that will mean much of anything when it comes to patents. Normal lawyers, even with IP backgrounds, aren't up to snuff. And some would happily take your money knowing there's not a chance in hades of approval.

Of course that doesn't mean you can't build the thing. It may be that the applicable patents are very old, and there may be a market. You might do better with an upper design that drops the full auto but keeps some of the other ideas. Just keep an open mind about options.
 
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Its not only patents in current or previously manufactured guns. There are countless existing patents that were never put into production. Patent attorney's are not cheap and the more complicated the design the more it will cost. If you plan on building this you would be much better off trying to do so in semiauto first unless the full auto mechanics are something new. Also, designs made on paper usually don't pan out in the real world. Even simple things, like gas port size or other dimensions often require trial and error.

In regards to prototype you do not need one to get a patent however the patent specifications, essentially the prints, must enable one to completely build it before a patent will be granted.
 
you don't have to mess with itar unless your dealing with the government
False.
(a) Any person who engages in the United States in the business of either manufacturing or exporting defense articles or furnishing defense services is required to register with the Office of Defense Trade Controls. Manufacturers who do not engage in exporting must nevertheless register
 
you don't have to mess with itar unless your dealing with the government

Which part of the ATF isn't government? I wanna deal with those guys! :D

I was looking at setting up a small ammo manufacturing company a while ago and ITAR was one of the main reasons it didn't happen. A yearly tax/registration in excess of $2,000 wasn't in the cards for us.
 
A platform is actually something the weapon is mounted on/shot from. An aircraft is a weapon's platform or a vehicle or waterborne craft. A deer stand is a platform.

The shooter is the platform when it comes to handheld weaponry. In this photo I am the platform- with a very cool hat, I might add
View attachment 609908

and to make up for the previous photo, here is one of a sexy weapon's platform- although the hat is not quite as cool. If you could make a platform like this one that's easy to acquire and is low maintenance, you could make a fortune
View attachment 609909
 
A platform is actually something the weapon is mounted on/shot from. An aircraft is a weapon's platform or a vehicle or waterborne craft. A deer stand is a platform.

Not only. In computer lingo for exmple a platform is "the basic technology of a computer system's hardware and software that defines how a computer is operated". In that sense it applies such as when we say the "AR platform" which includes ARs in a wide variety of configurations and calibers. Political platform is another use of the term that differs.
 
Would the restrictions/legal hurdles be any different if you just produced it in semi and not full auto?

They would be vastly different. It is completely legal to build a Title 1 (semi auto, non SBR) rifle without any licensing at all. All the OP would have to do is make sure that he had adequate machining capability (or the money to have someone do the machining for him). There may be something about him having to do the final machining on the receiver himself (the 80% finished AK receivers come to mind...) but other than that, I don't think there'd be anything keeping him from just building and testing it.

The only thing the NFA deals with is making it automatic or short barreled. If the OP can avoid those, there's no reason he can't put it together in his basement tonight.
 
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