Devil's advocate... Why buy a 1911

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NickEllis

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Here's a question for y'all...

Let's play the Devil's Advocate for a second. :evil:

Don't get me wrong, I am a big 1911 fan, and there's no other gun that I can shoot as well or is as fit to carry, in my opinion. I personally think the Kimber CDP II is the best carry gun out there right now for the money. But just for the sake of argument...

why should I buy 1911? There are alot of other models out there, and they seem to have some pretty fantastic engineering. I was taking a look at some HK's and SIGs, and how does the 1911 stand up to this new technology? Why should I go for old when I can get the new?

I figure that there are enough 1911 fans out there that I will get some response, but I would also like to be convinced that I shouldn't just go out and buy a USP or an HK for a better, more reliable weapon.

Gaiudo

PS This is my first post here at THR, you guys really have a great site here. Thanks for posting some awsome threads!
Shoot straight
 
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Being a somewhat newbie to handguns (8 years) I ask myself that same question, and in answer, I have never purchased a M1911.

I don't like .45s, and I don't care for the ergonomics of what I consider, an obsolete, well, that is not the correct term - how about - outdated weapon.

Sort of like getting a SA revolver. Okay for fun I guess, but for everyday?

I got spoiled out of the box by Glocks and Kahrs. They work for me, and so, unless I just want a curio, I have trouble justifying purchasing a handgun that is not modern. I consider PPKs, Lugers, and BHPs, etc. in this catagory as well.

The only non-modern autoloader I have is a Jetfire, purchased out of weakness. She was pretty and cheap. I hardly ever shoot her. She is still pretty though. Love that Beretta deep purple blue.

The only revolver I own is an SP101 which is, about sans titanium, one of the most modern revolvers on the market. But I consider revolvers - well sort of outdated as well. They have their place though.

Oh, and I hate grip safeties, with a passion. I like the new SA XD, but that puny grip safety bugs me. Top it off the M1911 is a really big heavy gun for only 7+1 shots, and the double stack models don't fit my hand.

You asked. Let the flames begin all you M1911 fans.

P.S. Except to look at, I don't like old cars either.
 
Come now....

Lone Gunman said...

If you have to ask, you will never understand.




Come now, don't condescend. That doesn't do me any good! Enlighten a newbie, my friend.

Gaiudo
 
My 1911 shoots better than any of my other handguns. This is very subjective, I know. I have a S&W model 29 that has a better trigger in SA, but the 1911 cocks itself and is more controllable.
 
Why buy a 1911? I mean, just one?

Now lets be serious. I wanted a .45ACP gun for CCW and decided on the M1911A1 after firing one and after reading Syd's Notebook on the 1911 on http://www.sightm1911.com/ (this is just part of the text, the rest is on PDF I suggest to download it and save it on your computer)

Elements of the Mystique

The Testosterone Factor - “.45†is synonymous with “big, powerful pistol.†The gun goes off with
authoritative thunder, a “boom†not a “crack.†Just the sight of this gun evokes images of Sgt. Alvin York
single-handedly capturing a regiment of Germans accompanied only by his `03 Springfield and his
M1911, of John Wayne in “Sands of Iwo Jimaâ€, and the Texas Rangers. Our villains are there too: the
Dillinger Gang with their1911 accessorized with the front grip and magazine of a Thompson submachine
gun, Dutch Schultz, Bonnie and Clyde. It’s a big pistol. It looks big and feels solid. It launches a big 230
grain bullet and delivers over 550 ft.lbs. of energy on impact.

Individuality and Customization - Any new-in-the-box 1911 is really a custom kit. The 1911 is to
handguns what the `57 Chevy is to hotrods or the P-51 Mustang to air racers, the ultimate platform for
customization. Pistoleros inclined to tinkering eventually find their way to the 1911. Aftermarket parts
abound for this pistol, and you can make it into almost anything your heart desires. The design
requirements for the pistol specified a gun which could be serviced in the field with a minimum number
of tools, and it can be completely disassembled with a screw driver and a punch. Consequently, the
1911 is very accessible from a mechanical point of view. It is relatively easy to install custom parts or
modify existing ones. Few 1911s remain completely stock for very long, unless they are those models
which include the custom features usually added to the mil-spec guns, such as extended beavertails,
custom triggers and hammers, full length guide rods, and decorative grips. For those who seek a
personalized sidearm, the 1911 is one of the best platforms from which to begin.

Accuracy - The 1911 is one of the most accurate autoloaders ever built. The original government issue
1911s were built with generous tolerances in order to keep them functioning in combat conditions.
Hence, they were reasonably accurate, but not outstanding. Gunsmiths learned to tune the military
surplus guns for greater accuracy by tightening the slides and adding match grade barrels and bushings.
Newer incarnations of the 1911 are built to tighter tolerances, yielding pistols with outstanding accuracy.
The long 5†barrel of the Government Model is also an asset, but pistols with shorter barrels also display
great accuracy. In my own opinion, a modern 1911 is generally a more accurate handgun than the .45
offerings of leading makers such as SIG, Glock, H&K, and Smith & Wesson.
The single action trigger of the 1911 is its glory and curse. The 1911 must be cocked, either by hand
(not recommended) or by racking the slide.You cannot cock the hammer by pulling the trigger as is done
with a double action revolver or autoloader. For this reason, the pistol must be cocked and locked with
the manual safety on in order to be ready to fire quickly. Browning’s 1911 prototype did not have the
manual safety at all. Browning felt that the grip safety was sufficient, but the Army disagreed and
directed Browning to add the thumb activated manual safety on the side of the frame. Even with the
double safety configuration, the Army remained jumpy about the action and trained soldiers to carry the
pistol hammer down on an empty chamber.
This action, the source of so much anxiety, is also the basis for the pistol’s accuracy, speed, and
consistency. Since there is no double action linkage to add resistance and catches, the trigger pull of the
1911 is very short and light, requiring only about 5 lbs. of pressure to fire. Every shot is the same since
there isn’t the long, hard, cocking pull of the first shot of a DA/SA auto. The result is better trigger control
and consistency.

Power - The .45 ACP is a proven stopper. The only other handgun cartridge which has demonstrated
stopping power comparable to the .45 ACP is the 125 grain .357 Magnum jacketed hollowpoint. The
Army moved to the .45 caliber bullet after the failure of the .38 Long Colt to stop the Moro tribesmen in
the Philippines. Contrary to popular myth, the .45 ACP was not issued in the Philippines during the Moro
uprising, but the experience with the Moros led the Army to specify the .45 for its new autoloader. The
Moros used religious ritual and body binding to put themselves into an altered state of consciousness
prior to battles, and the .38 Long Colt would not adequately stop these highly motivated warriors. Moving
forward a century, law enforcement is again looking to the brute force stopping power of the .45 ACP to
deal the current generation of criminals, many of whom use drugs which numb the senses, suppress the
response to systemic shock, and repress the survival instinct. While ballistics mavens may argue the
merits of their particular pet cartridges, few would argue that there is a better pistol cartridge than the
.45 ACP. It has been decisively stopping fights for longer than most of us have been on this troubled little
planet.

The Last of the Cowboy Guns - In some ways, the 1911 is the last of the cowboy guns. It was, after all,
a product of the 19th Century, designed as a sidearm for horse-mounted cavalry, and carries the single
action legacy of the old cowboy six guns from Samuel Colt. Only a few other autoloaders adopted the
single action trigger such as the Llama .380, the Colt Government .380, and the Browning Hi-Power,
Browning’s last, and perhaps, most elegant design. Other pistol designers did not adopt the grip safety
and tended to follow the double action/single action pattern being used in French and German pistols
built by FN, Walther, and Mauser. The 1911 launches a big, slow bullet, hearkening back again to the six
shooters of the fabled Old West. The Europeans, by way of contrast, tended to favor the smaller and
faster cartridges such as the .32, .380, and 9mm Luger.
Cocked, locked and ready to rock - From Chuck Taylor, "The controls of the 1911 are well-located for
quick, efficient use and require no fine motor skill to operate, a major advantage when the adrenaline is
pumping through your veins like a high-pressure pipeline. In fact, the slide stop/release, magazine
release button and thumb safety of the M1911 are so easy to operate that no additional training is
required. Even when the gun is being presented from a holster, proper training techinque incorporates
disengagement of the thumb safety at the appropriate time. As practical firearms go, we'll search far and
wide for something as easy to use effectively, particularly under stress, as Old Ugly."
Tenure - Some designs capture our imaginations and become archetypes by virtue of their success and
staying power: The Single Action Colt Revolver, the Snubnose .38 Special, the 30-30 Winchester leveraction
Rifle, The AK-47, the Winchester12 gauge pump shotgun, the bolt action Mauser rifle, and the M-
16. The 1911 is one of these enduring design archetypes. I know of no other firearm introduced in 1911
which is still in production virtually unchanged. Today, scores of manufacturers produce 1911-pattern
guns, and many more make their living through customizing and servicing the venerable hand cannon.
The 1911 is an extremely durable design and it is not uncommon to find 1911’s with a service life of
150,000 rounds. Perhaps we like the things which endure, those things which have been battle tested
and validated time and time again. Maybe it’s just a really good design that we like. Regardless of the
explanations, the shear staying-power of the 1911 .45 ACP is an element of its mystique.

Syd’s 1911 Notebook
 
What yucapote, Matthew Courtney, Lone_Gunman, and Shmackey said. I can't add to that, so I'm not going to aggravate my carpal tunnel by trying.:)

bad-dad-brad, I'm not going to flame you....but I am going to disagree. The 1911 is still around because it's a PROVEN design. It's survived all these years because it WORKS. You may consider it a curio...I consider it the finest tool available for defending my loved ones. To each their own.

bc:)
 
Why buy a 1911 ?

It works. Ergonomics fit a larger number of persons, flat for conceal carry, not as dependedent on a bunch of stuff like some designs like levers and springs as some spagehetti guns[simplicity of design]. 45 ACP a proven cal., however in .38 super and 9x23 this design is also very well proven. (9x23 in really growing on me btw). Pointability, ruggedness proven in a variety of environs....

yeah I know it has springs and such...the ability for field expediate maintenance...and in the original, interchangability of parts...
 
I was taking a look at some HK's and SIGs, and how does the 1911 stand up to this new technology?

If, by "new technology," you meant "awful trigger," you're right. The 1911 trigger isn't even in the same boat... If you meant "made of an old thermos or teflon skillet," you're right again. You'll have to accept actual forged steel on a 1911. I know, life is tough. :)
 
Oh Wait...<tongue in cheek>...1911's are no good yea thats it , buy plastic, bling bling and we all know the best gun is the one featured in the gun mag of the month club, the gun used by a LEO agency bean counters making purchases a myth


[think they bought it guys?....whew...more for us anyway if we can just keep people from finding out about them there 1911's] ;)
 
The 1911 has a more easily tuneable trigger than any other common auto.

Everything else is either comparable, or a bit dated. Issues or size, accuracy, ergonomics, reliability or durability are all more than addressed in other designs.
 
Like, dude, who'd want a pistol that can be completely disassembled without a roll pin punch, a plastic bag to catch little springs, dental picks for weird angle parts removals, or an armorer's class?

Who'd want a pistol that will never have a frame recall, one that has had examples in military service for over 60 years through numerous rebuilds?

Who'd want a pistol one can get $7.00 range mags for, one that has more customizeability, parts manufacturers, holster makers, you name it, than any other design?

Who'd want a working piece of history, the only pistol that will ever even begin to look right paired with an '03, or '17 Springfield, an M1 Garand, an M1 Carbine, an M3A3 Grease Gun, an M1A1 Thompson, an M-14 or a full size M-16 knock-off?

Yeah, a real stupid choice that 1911.:rolleyes:
 
Gaiudo,

Not trying to be condescending, just telling it as I see it.

You say yourself you are a big 1911 fan.

Handle a 1911, then handle everything else.

If you still have to wonder why 1911 is best, then you should pick another gun.
 
Issues or size, accuracy, ergonomics, reliability or durability are all more than addressed in other designs.

Handy, I have to disagree as far as accuracy is concerned. Out of the box, a plain 1911 will have accuracy comparable to, say, a Sig or HK (and better than a Glock, in my opinion). An out-of-the-box Kimber will have better accuracy than that. And a properly accurized 1911 will blow the doors off of any "modern" centerfire semi-auto, Sig 210 excluded. There's a reason why Bullseye matches aren't full of people shooting Glocks. And it's not just 'cause they're all senior citizens. :)
 
The well tuned 1911's I've shot have been some of the nicest guns I've had the pleasure to shoot. Some day, I'd love to own one. There is just something about a gun you can customize to meet your exact wants/ needs.
 
There is just something about a gun you can customize to meet your exact wants/ needs.

This is something the polymer framed guns will NEVER posess.

Try changing the grip panels on your HK USP to a beautiful, yet durable, laminate.

bc:)
 
Gaiudo, short of actually knowing what your needs are, finances, background, etc., it would be awfully hard for us to tell you why you should or should not purchase a given gun, make, or model. Are you looking for a best gun, best value for the money, most accurate, lightest, best reputation out of the box, least recoil, best safety features, or what?
 
I would add that it can be detail stripped by just about anyone with a few simple tools.

That is why I got one. I wanted a pistol that I could tweak to my liking. Nothing else that I can think of even comes close.

The aftermarket following and parts for 1911's means that, like a Harley, you can build one without a single "original" part.

I have an H&K for carry when I can fit a full size .45 on my person even though I usually carry a revolver. My H&K is our bedside home defense gun.

My Colt 1911 is for range work only. That is not to say a 1911 is not a good carry weapon. But, like Harleys, they can fill the bill from very narrowly defined specific tasks (target pistol) to a more general purpose highly reliable weapon (military grade for example) and everything in between.
 
I've owned two 1991A1's, both had lots of sharp edges for carry guns and were not all that accurate BUT were perfectly reliable. Still I find myself being a bit gun shy about them and asking the same questions....

I had about decided on a Springfield Champion as my next pistol, but frankly not just it's detractors but even it's fans have scared me off it a bit. Too much "It's a great gun to start with" or "It's very reliable and/or accurate after you...." "Yeah you can shoot +P rounds in it.. no wait.. the factory doesn't recommend it with that bbl length..."

Like most folks I have more problems than money, the concept of spending $700 to buy a problem just doesn't jive with me. I kinda expect guns to work right from the box, including being reliable with most hollowpoints, and having acceptable accuracy. When even a manufacturers biggest fans are telling me one of the companies best features is how they treat yu when you send a new gun back to them to get it to work right I get :uhoh:
 
besides the aesthetic reasons like history, looks, and fun of customizing, there is the practical side.

Before becoming a collector of 1911's, I tried just about everything else - Glock, HK, Sig's, you name it.

There is no other powerful defensive handgun that I can fire with the same speed, accuracy, or reliability.

Want a target gun? drop on a .22 conversion kit. Want to shoot cheap 9mm? Buy or build one. Want to swap between .45 and 9mm? No problem. Want more umph? 10mm, or .45 Super.

Oh, the 9 & 10mm's will run fine with 9+1 mags, and my .45's all run fine with 8+1 mags.
 
Just because its old doesn't mean its outdated. I think a person who calls a gun outdated or obsolete just because its old doesn't know about the mechanics of the gun/s.
 
I don't own one. I personally don't care for the dovetail. I've shot quite a few of them but I'll stick with my HKs. Of course it's all crazy since I'll be buying a Wilson KZ-45 next year if the ban doesn't sunset. If it does I'll buy whichever one Wilson comes out with in that style with more orunds:evil: Also I refuse to own anything where the mag doesn't fit flush and give me at least 10rds.

EDIT: just to throw off the demographic , unlike Brad I love old muscle cars
 
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