H
Handy
Guest
Nope, but look for the Colt Double Eagle and the Mitchell Arms 1911. Also something called "Viking"? I think.
Devil's advocate... Why buy a 1911
- Thread starter NickEllis
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I just keep rolling my eyes each time I hear folks talk about this outdated design, this obsolete recreation-only piece called the 1911. Yes it is obsolete. Because these days a handgun has to be built to suit lawyers, be workable by ill-trained users, and be cheap to make. The 1911 is none of the above. Instead it was designed to win fights at the hands of a trained user, and is a superb piece of complex machinery from back when guns were expected to be such. It also never needed to hold 15 rounds, because if you needed that many CW was that you were either a lousy shot or brought the wrong weapon to begin with.
So-called "modern" handguns today are made cheaper, not better. Aside from that, and being lighter they offer no advantage over a well-made 1911. And in a REAL gunfight you're not going to care if your pistol was expensive or is just a little bit heavier than most.
So-called "modern" handguns today are made cheaper, not better. Aside from that, and being lighter they offer no advantage over a well-made 1911. And in a REAL gunfight you're not going to care if your pistol was expensive or is just a little bit heavier than most.
mattd
Member
The 1911 is a simple design so its easy and cheap to make, if it was complex and expensive it wouldn't still be around.
Wrong. 1911's are neither easy nor cheap to make, at least by comparison to newer designs. That is the whole reason why so many new 1911s use cheap cast or MIM parts these days. The original specifications called for the parts to be machined from forged barstock, which is too cost-prohibitive these days. However, this is also the only right way to make durable parts if you really want a good, reliable 1911.
Example: No less than a dozen genuine USGI or early pre-war commercial 1911 pistols are in my collection, all still with their original plunger tubes, slide stops, extractors, sears, and disconnectors. At the same time, these five components are some of the most problematic ones in new pistols these days, mostly because they are usually cast or MIM. For example, I had to replace two plunger tubes and every extractor in several new Colts and Kimbers, and one Springfield I bought in the last three or four years.
Example: No less than a dozen genuine USGI or early pre-war commercial 1911 pistols are in my collection, all still with their original plunger tubes, slide stops, extractors, sears, and disconnectors. At the same time, these five components are some of the most problematic ones in new pistols these days, mostly because they are usually cast or MIM. For example, I had to replace two plunger tubes and every extractor in several new Colts and Kimbers, and one Springfield I bought in the last three or four years.
mattd
Member
I would think it would be cheaper now than 1910 because with cnc machines you can make the parts night and day and cheap metal because of china.
TheMariner
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2003
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- 154
JShirley
Explain how a shot through the heart with a .223 differs from a shot through the heart with a .357? Let me answer that...
They don't.
.357 JHP is just as destructive as most rifle rounds when shot from 7 yards... But any skilled marksman can twitch at the moment when it counts... And thus lose their life.
Back to the compared heart shots... Perhaps there is a difference between the two shots? Well, one could be made from as far away as 150yards while the other most likely will be made from under 25yards... the key thought? The same guy under each circumstance, given teh same point of impact and ignoring psychological factors, will live for the same amount of time before suffering to the effects fo teh wound. But I would bet this shot victim could retaliate much more effectively from 25yards away than 150, eh? Thus, you can still be an excellent shooter but a good shot can still get you killed if the effect isn't made quick enough to render the target immobile.
The shorter the distance, the more real that fact becomes... And the more psychology can play for or against you as the shooter. Some criminals fear death and others can be driven to mindless rage...
Answer to this whole problem?
A CNS hit will immoblize, be it rifle or pistol.
While many people suscribe to the double tap or the 2COM:1Head bit, my thoughts and training focused more on the vital and instantly to near instantly lethal hit zones... refer to my post here
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14921&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
Explain how a shot through the heart with a .223 differs from a shot through the heart with a .357? Let me answer that...
They don't.
.357 JHP is just as destructive as most rifle rounds when shot from 7 yards... But any skilled marksman can twitch at the moment when it counts... And thus lose their life.
Back to the compared heart shots... Perhaps there is a difference between the two shots? Well, one could be made from as far away as 150yards while the other most likely will be made from under 25yards... the key thought? The same guy under each circumstance, given teh same point of impact and ignoring psychological factors, will live for the same amount of time before suffering to the effects fo teh wound. But I would bet this shot victim could retaliate much more effectively from 25yards away than 150, eh? Thus, you can still be an excellent shooter but a good shot can still get you killed if the effect isn't made quick enough to render the target immobile.
The shorter the distance, the more real that fact becomes... And the more psychology can play for or against you as the shooter. Some criminals fear death and others can be driven to mindless rage...
Answer to this whole problem?
A CNS hit will immoblize, be it rifle or pistol.
While many people suscribe to the double tap or the 2COM:1Head bit, my thoughts and training focused more on the vital and instantly to near instantly lethal hit zones... refer to my post here
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14921&perpage=25&pagenumber=2
Actually you bring up an interesting point. The Chinese-made Norincos were some of the best-quality 1911s made in recent years. They were made of all forged, machined tool-steel parts. No plastic, MIM, or cast junk anyhwere. They were also cheap, costing almost a couple hundred less than an equivalent Colt at the time. How could they do this? Because they were made in the land of mass low-cost labor. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) they can't do that here in the USA. Labor costs are high, so inexpensive manufacturing methods have to be used in order to keep costs down. That's what hurts the current 1911 market because the guns were not originally designed to use those kinds of parts. This is why we keep hearing of extractors failing, thumb safeties breaking, and other parts wearing out or fitting improperly.
ZekeLuvs1911
Member
Hi gang,
Instead of arguing, why don't you all just do this...........
P.S. You may need to rob a few banks.....
Instead of arguing, why don't you all just do this...........
P.S. You may need to rob a few banks.....
mattd
Member
Another factor would be that cnc machines make parts to good, so there is less room in the gun between parts so its more prone to failure.
Snaps
Member
That's a great idea. Just get one of everything I need more money
I need more money
H
Handy
Guest
Matt,
CNC makes parts to a higher tolerance, but what you are describing is clearance. Clearance is a design spec - either you follow the design or don't.
CNC makes parts to a higher tolerance, but what you are describing is clearance. Clearance is a design spec - either you follow the design or don't.
mattd
Member
I think its the historic value and the fact that its still a good gun.
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