Dichotomy in gun friendly states..

[News Shooter]

You guys need to move up here to the firearms utopia that is Massachusetts

Truthfully though, every time people make fun of us (and it is easy to) I hear about states with more onerous laws than ours. The reality here is that once you get your Class LTC you are pretty much good to go with the exception of not having as many handguns to choose from. No waiting periods, not going hat in hand to the sheriff, no limits, etc.

 

[30 cal slob]

Michigan's concealed weapons laws pre-date those of TX.

Excluding the economically ailing (rustbucket) SE portion of the state, MI is largely semi-rural/rural.

Funny. My adopted home state of CT, which has had CCW longer than either TX or NC, has far fewer off-limits places than TX or NC or even VA.

 

[Mousegun]

Tennessee has a way to go. We get criminally charged (only a misdemeanor but still) if we are caught carrying in a place that simply puts up a sign instead of the "ask to leave" and only getting charged if you refuse thing.

You don't know what kind of a hindrance that can be until you've lived it.

We also can not carry in a place that serves no matter how upscale the restaurant or how little they derive from alcohol sales.

Most of us are more intent on getting the restaurant law changed but I feel they are both just as bad.

We can open carry but it is not advisable in East Tennessee due to the number of liberal Michiganders that moved here Man with a gun would ring out loud and clear Just kiddin' (but true). I am from PRNJ but my neck has gone very red since I have been here.

 

[El Tejon]

Texas, carrying is the ne plus ultra test of being gun friendly. The OP asks about carrying. I answered--and a Texan tried to change the subject.

 

[Zundfolge]

In this list I see only Alaska that has the best of all these. You guys are all hung up on carry, there's much more to it than that.

Texas is not better or worse than Colorado in all those issues EXCEPT for open and concealed carry (and our concealed carry is significantly better than yours).

So while there's "more to it" than carry, it is our carry laws that tip the scale.

If you asked 100 random people what state was the most gun friendly and most would say Texas ... my point is that the reality of the laws does not support that position.

 

[TexasRifleman]

No, the OP said....

Texas arguably has some of the best gun friendly laws of all the states, yet open carry is illegal, and even printing can be an offense.

He brought up open carry as a comparison to the OTHER gun friendly laws, not just carry.

We are now discussing other states gun laws as they compare/contrast to carry. The OP himself saw the distinction, I'm trying to continue that.

And as I say, I'm interested in seeing other states ranking here, I don't care if Texas wins or not. So far I see Alaska and Colorado "up there" in overall gun friendliness. Indiana appears to rank well at least as far as I can find out. Lots of other states may pass some of the carry stuff but fail on other counts like the restrictions I mention.

Texas, carrying is the ne plus ultra test of being gun friendly

And that just can't be true as the only ultra test. California has some of the friendliest laws towards those that carry, but you are not going to say that California passes the ultra test of being gun friendly are you?

Arizona has open carry, but you can't carry in nearly all of the places you'd WANT to, so is that gun friendly?
Being restricted from ANY place that sells alcohol for on premise consumption seems EXTREMELY unfriendly.
That covers just about any sit down restaurant you can think of, as well as so many other places.

 

[El Tejon]

Well, I object. We need a ruling from the OP.

 

[rbernie]

Overruled.

The Texan may continue the debate.

 

[TexasRifleman]

The Texan may continue the debate.

I dont wanna debate about Texas, I want to hear from other states.
The OP is right, why the disconnect?

Take Arizona again, seems like wide open friendly til you look under the covers. Same with Texas.

Is Alaska truly the ONLY gun friendly state left?

What is with the legislatures that they are OK with open carry but then restrict us to basically our front yard and the local grocery store?(Sorry to pick on Arizona but it seems the wackiest "dichotemy")

I'm going on vacation to Arizona tomorrow and I'm considering not even taking a gun after reading all the restrictions. I'm going to be in a resort area and every place I can find sells drinks by the glass so I'm pretty much confined to my hotel room as far as carry. The golf courses sell alcohol so that's out too. Indian reservations are out, etc. Heck I might as well be in Chicago as far as "gun friendly".....

So I think the OP has hit on something important. We have many states with the appearance of gun friendly but when you read the fine print it turns out to be anything but.

 

[Zundfolge]

The OP is right, why the disconnect?

The disconnect seems to be most prominent in southern states ... so I think we can lay the blame on Jim Crow there.

Also, being originally from Kansas, the culture of many midwestern conservatives is one of embracing the police state and rejecting individual liberty (while also rejecting the trappings of "liberalism" like sexual permissiveness, atheism and alcohol). So they buy into the idea that it is the proper place of the state to keep people under control.

It has only been in the last couple of decades that conservatism and RKBA came together.

 

[DrewH]

Interesting. I think Texas is pretty gun friendly, but not outstandingly better than other gun friendly states. And outside of of 10 or so "blue" states most states are gun friendly. You can also look at the Brady site and see who has the honor of getting an "F", does Texas?

Here is my score for the three states I have permits for, Virginia, Florida and Washington

NFA friendly? TX Yes VA Yes FL Yes WA No
Preemption? TX Yes VA Yes FL Yes WA Yes
Open Carry? TX No VA Yes FL No? WA Yes? (Here culture is important re local police reaction)
CCW and where you can do that? TX so-so. Bars no, restaurants selling alcohol yes. Churches. Yes Schools No
VA so-so as well. No concealed in places that serve alcohol (VA laws don't really permit stand alone bars), but open carry OK. Churches No during services. Schools No. State Government offices Yes (Texas is No on that, right?)
FL so-so as well, maybe a touch better. Bar "areas" No Restaurants OK, Churches OK? Schools No Gov Offices No
WA so-so. Bar areas (liquor laws are very state specific and affect a lot of this, BTW), No. Restaurants OK, Churches OK, Schools No, Gov Offices ?
May issue vs Shall issue? TX Shall issue Fingerprints, Training
VA Shall Issue, mostly no fingerprints. Cost is $50 for 5 years
FL Shall Issue, fingerprints, training
WA Shall Issue fingerprints, no training
Carry Reciprocity? TX has lots of reciprocity agreements. FL is better. VA and WA both weaker (but VA and TX recipricate)
Unlicensed carry in cars, RVs, etc.? TX Yes, VA open, otherwise must have CCW, FL glove box OK. WA must have CCW Advantage TX I think
Castle Doctrine or similar laws protecting gun owners in self defense cases? TX Yes VA self defense not statutory, but pretty good. WA No? FL Yes
Long gun laws like AWB style things? TX No Va FL No No WA No
Long gun carry laws? TX No VA No, pretty much. WA ?
Magazine restrictions? TX No VA No Fl No Wa No
Purchasing requirements besides usual Fed (FOID etc)? TX No Va No FL No WA No
Purchasing limits? (1 a month or silliness like that)? TX No VA Yes, 1 Handgun a month, exempt with CCW or several other reasons, FL No WA No
Restrictions on what you can hunt with? caliber, magazine capacity... TX No (other than Federal stuff) VA Yes. Don't know for others
State of Emergency confiscation/sale restrictions (Katrina laws). TX Yes VA Yes. Don't know for others
Threat of force laws? TX You may point a gun at someone as a threat of force and it not be considered USE of deadly force in some cases.
VA case law only but pretty good. Can't speak to WA or FL but they seem pretty good. TX might be least restrictive overall.

 

[Mainsail]

Well, since nobody mentioned Washington, I guess I better. EDIT: Woops, I see someone did just above my post.
Shall issue; no specific training requirements.
Open Carry is legal without any permit of any kind.
All carry is legal where alcohol is sold or served except in bars or the bar area of a restaurant.
Complete firearms preemption at the state level.

Yes, there are some parts that could be better, but overall there’s more firearms freedom here than in the majority of states.

 

[outofbattery]

You guys need to move up here to the firearms utopia that is Massachusetts

Here,it just depends upon your CLEO.Mine's great,some are horrible.The AWB and AG's approved list for handguns are pains but our carry laws are far better than many "gun friendly" states.There are almost always tradeoffs but least to me,it's a bigger deal that I can legally carry virtually everywhere vs not being able to have a bayonet lug.It's mostly on principal that I think being able to always protect yourself is the most important aspect of firearms ownership but,in practicality,there hasn't been a shooting in my county in over a century.Really,if MA didn't require me to have a License to Carry just to own handguns and large cap rifles,I probably wouldn't have bothered getting one.

 

[DDude]

"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

Maybe I'm just naive, but what part of this do the seperate states, municipalities, etc. not understand? Since the seperate states, municipalities, etc. don't limit Bill of Rights Amendments 1, 3 -10, etc... I can't figure it out. Someone help me please.

 

[WayneConrad]

There is no utopia, fellas. I'm happy to tell visitors that you can open carry here with a truly low probability of problems, but it is also true that firearms are a political hot button here, as they are in any other state in the union, and we have to work hard to retain and advance our rights here as do others in the country. And there are fights we've yet to win, and fights we will lose in the future.

 

[ArmedBear]

The dichotomy can work the other way, too.

California is known for restrictive gun laws like magazine size limits and "assault weapons" laws, and CCW permits that can be impossible to get, even for people who carry large amounts of cash for business reasons, in counties where they might most need the permits. Open carry is not permitted in city limits as well as other places, and you'd better be careful where you do carry if you want to stay out of legal trouble.

However, our self-defense laws are pretty well-written. We can keep and carry concealed firearms at a campsite, without a permit. We've never had a "duty to retreat", and we have the legal right to shoot anyone who breaks into our domicile without further ascertaining their intent to do harm. We even now have "Katrina protections", which Arizona's governor vetoed. So some of our laws are far more pro-self-defense than the laws in some "shall-issue" states, and at least one of our laws is more pro-gun than Arizona. Go figure.

I think that some governments, e.g. DC, are just plain anti-gun. I think that others mght be de facto anti-gun, but in reality, they're just obsessed with regulating everything that anyone might own, buy, sell, or do. There's a belief by some that this will make a better society, and by others that there's good money in it. California has its anti-gun and its pro-gun legislators, but in the end, I think that our government is more pro-overregulation than specifically anti-gun.

What does this mean? I think it calls for a different approach, though as a libertarian type, I find both staunch anti-gun and staunch pro-regulation governments to be abhorrent.

 

[TallPine]

Quote:
There are a LOT of states with better gun laws than Texas,

Again, besides Alaska, let's see a list and the reasoning behind.

Well, I'd have to rank Montana as 2nd or 3rd behind Alaska. You don't need a permit to CCW outside city limits, for instance (~98% of the state, area wise).

Laws get enacted in a random and chaotic manner, and every state seems to have its weird ones. MT, for instance - you can't carry into a bank even with a permit (which seems to be one place you would really want to be armed if carrying cash to/from ). OTOH, I understand AK has a statute that you have to notify and get permission from non-business property owners before carrying on their land/in their home.

MT and AZ are both open carry, but their laws are nearly opposite AFAIK. In AZ only a part of the holster has to be visible to be considered "open" while in MT your gun cannot be "wholly or partially concealed by clothing." [inside city limits] (which means purse/fannypack carry is technically legal).

Sometimes I wish I had stayed in Alaska, but even more so I wish that I had planted myself permanently in Montana the first time I drove through on the way north 30 yrs ago

 

[modifiedbrowning]

Here's how Montana stacks up with Texas.

NFA friendly? MT Yes
Preemption? MT Yes
Open Carry? MT yes
CCW and where you can do that? No Banks, Bars or Government buildings.
May issue vs Shall issue? MT Shall issue
Carry Reciprocity? MT has limited reciprocity agreements.
Unlicensed carry in cars, RVs, etc.? MT Yes
Castle Doctrine or similar laws protecting gun owners in self defense cases? MT Yes
Long gun laws like AWB style things? MT No
Long gun carry laws? MT No
Magazine restrictions? MT No
Purchasing requirements besides usual Fed (FOID etc)? MT No
Purchasing limits? (1 a month or silliness like that)? MT No
Restrictions on what you can hunt with? caliber, magazine capacity... MT I don't know
State of Emergency confiscation/sale restrictions (Katrina laws). MT Yes
Threat of force laws? MT I believe it is the same as TX, but I do not know positively.

 

[HuntAndFish]

Missouri:

NFA friendly? TX Yes MO=Yes
Preemption? TX Yes MO=Yes for concealed, No for open
Open Carry? TX No MO=By Municipality, most are okay.
CCW and where you can do that? TX so-so. Bars no, restaurants selling alcohol yes. Churches, hospitals. Yes Schools No MO - Same as Tx
May issue vs Shall issue? TX Shall issue MO=Same as Tx
Carry Reciprocity? TX has lots of reciprocity agreements. MO=Similiar to Tx, except WY.
Unlicensed carry in cars, RVs, etc.? TX Yes MO=Yes
Castle Doctrine or similar laws protecting gun owners in self defense cases? TX Yes MO=Yes
Long gun laws like AWB style things? TX No MO=NO
Long gun carry laws? TX No MO=NO
Magazine restrictions? TX No MO=NO
Purchasing requirements besides usual Fed (FOID etc)? TX No MO=NO
Purchasing limits? (1 a month or silliness like that)? TX No MO=NO
Restrictions on what you can hunt with? caliber, magazine capacity... TX No (other than Federal stuff) MO=Some limits like >10 rnd mags verboten. No caliber limits.
State of Emergency confiscation/sale restrictions (Katrina laws). TX Yes MO=Yes
Threat of force laws? TX You may point a gun at someone as a threat of force and it not be considered USE of deadly force in some cases. MO=This is probably true in MO if threat is evident. We've had several LTC holders brandish with no charges filed.

I will also add that there is no Tx equivalent of 30.06 signs in MO. Signage means they ask you to leave if discovered. We also have peaceable journey laws, and any valid LTC from anywhere in the US is honored in MO.

MO does not have any equivalent of the protection of property laws with deadly force as in TX.

 

[frankie_the_yankee]

The reason why TX typically comes up first as the answer to the question of which is the most gun friendly state is because the people in TX are gun friendly.

Texans like guns and gun owners. And they are known for liking guns and gun owners. It's as simple as that.

It's true that the law has a little ways to go to catch up with the people but it's getting there. This year was a very good year in the legislature.

And forget the technicalities of where you can carry or what kinds of signs are honored, etc.

More important than any of that stuff is that if you are ever forced to shoot someone in self defense, you will find that TX is by far the friendliest state of all. (Get involved in a defensive shooting in MA and then talk to me about how "good" their gun laws are once you've cleared the may issue CHL hurdle.)

And that's what counts. (We own guns for protection, right?)

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Idaho.

Open or concealed permitless carry outside of city or town limits, open permitless carry almost everywhere, except a few places. Shall issue CPL. No limits like one a month purchases or ten round mags. Friendly enough attitude towards carry in general -- open or concealed.

I don't know about NFA friendliness, nor am I certain on the Castle laws.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Perhaps "gun friendly laws" was not the most accurate term. Maybe "gun friendly culture"?

Case and point, can anyone really dispute that Texas as a whole is pretty gun friendly? If the Texan culture is gun friendly, and culture comes from people, who don't the Texan people change the laws to reflect their views? Same with AZ. That is the point of my question.

 

[ilbob]

ever hear of federalism?

 

[Cannonball888]

The Best Argument for Texas OC

 

[Sage of Seattle]

Case and point, can anyone really dispute that Texas as a whole is pretty gun friendly?

Well, yes and no. That Texas is gun friendly is an opinion. When we compare and contrast the written laws, then we have something to dispute or agree with.

If the Texan culture is gun friendly, and culture comes from people, who don't the Texan people change the laws to reflect their views?

Exactly. We can more readily point to the result of the friendly gun culture as a measure of its overall friendliness. Texas gun laws are very good, but I'm more free in Washington or Idaho or Virginia to wear my six-gun on my hip than I am in Texas.