.308 over .30-06 not a caliber war

[Chrome]

What does .308 offer over .30-06 (besides a shorter action)? I'm looking to purchase a solely target rifle, likely custom. I already have a few .30-06 rifles and I like the caliber. However, I've noticed that .308 has a large following in the target circles.

Shooting range will be anywhere from 100 yards to 1000. Rifle will be either a Mauser action of a 700 action.

As I understand it, .308 was developed off of the .30-06. So what does .308 offer that a .30-06 cannot provide outside of the action length in a target rifle?

Later,
Chrome...

 

[R.W.Dale]

What does .308 offer over .30-06 (besides a shorter action)?

There are a few more target/long range specific factory loadings for .308win.

But other than that there isn't anything 308 does that 30-06 doesn't do better. With proper handloads the 06 will deliver a heavier more aerodynamic bullet at longer ranges and higher velocities than 308 will. That means it'll be more accurate because the atmosphere has to work harder to mess up your groups.

 

[gtmerkley]

30-06 is like .308 mag So to speek.Yes I know its not realy a .308 mag just using itas a refrence.

 

[hps1]

What does .308 offer over .30-06 (besides a shorter action)?

That's it.

Regards,
hps

For the downside, see post by krochus above.

 

[dscottw88]

You'll see more milsurp ammo for 308, or at least we use to see more of it. Recent prices makes 308 pretty pricey tho.

 

[marineman]

.308 is slightly more accurate and shorter. .30-06 is slightly more powerful and can fire heavier bullets.

 

[Sunray]

"...higher velocities...more aerodynamic bullet..." A whole 100 fps with like bullets. A .308" match bullet is a .308" match bullet. Both cartridges use the same one. A .308 will shoot 175 or 190 grain match bullets just as well as the .30-06. Heavier bullets might make a difference for hunting, but not long range target shooting. Both prefer 168 or 175 grain match bullets over a 19o's though. High end .300 Win Mag target rifles(heavy at 17 plus pounds) like the 190's though.
"....308 was developed off of the .30-06..." Yep. Shorten a .30-06 by half an inch and you have a .308.
The .308 came about to take advantage of the then new powders while getting the same ballistics in a shorter case. Then it proved to be more inherently accurate. Although that can be and has been hotly debated too. Has to do with a short fat case in relation to the bullet diameter.
Very generally speaking, though, a heavy barreled .308 target rifle will out shoot the same type of rifle in .30-06.
"...likely custom..." Spend the money in the barrel and sights. Some target matches are iron sights only. Others allow scopes. You'll have to decide which game you want to play first.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Heavier bullets might make a difference for hunting, but not long range target shooting.

OF course! How silly of me that's why everyone is shooting 110grn varmint bullets at 1000yd matches. Bullet weight matters or more specifically Ballistic coefficent a 30-06 will launch a 190smk at the vuritually the same speeds as 308 launches a 168grainer.

At 1000yds a 30-06 shooting a 190grn matchking with a BC of .575 you end up with appx 70" of deflection from a 10mph crosswind

the 308 shooting a 168grn bullet at 2800 with a bc of .475 ends up with about 91" of deflection in the same wind

so in this scenerao the venerable 30-06 has 23% less drift than 308 win

Both prefer 168 or 175 grain match bullets over a 19o's though.

says you, what do you base this hypotheses on?

The .308 came about to take advantage of the then new powders while getting the same ballistics in a shorter case.

The same technology helps the 06 as well, you just end up with that much more.

Then it proved to be more inherently accurate.

inherently accuracy is a load of warm gooey BS devised by 308 people to bolster their precieved superiority Hell I own a 7.62x39 that shoots on the .3's Most consider this the be the least inherently accurate cartridge ever devised

 

[jkingrph]

When I got my first centerfire, a Win mod 70 ftw in 30-06 in spring of 1963 308 was not a choice. Dad won the rifle as prize points in a nationwide sales contest promotion for Underwood typewriter. I think 270 may have been offered but cannot remember. It 308 had been the only choice in this rifle, I would have gladly taken it & maybe enjoyed it more if the recoil is slightly less. 30-06 ammo was plentiful at the time as surplus. I had friends who got me a lot of lake city national match ammo. That said, I have acquired a few more '06s and none in 308, just do not see the need and besides the 06 is the classic Garand cartridge.

 

[Jim Watson]

First, figure out what you will really use the gun for. Read the rules of any organized competition that looks attractive. For example, I shoot F-class in F-T/R which allows ONLY .308 or .223. A .30-06 would compete in F-open against the 6.5x284 and .300 magnums, etc.

Second, there are darned few Mauser actions on serious target rifles these days. The Remington is much better established and more suitable for the job. Save your Mauser for a fancy hunting rifle.

 

[GearHead_1]

Slightly less recoil if you see this a plus.

 

[ar10]

Here's a pretty good article about .308 vs 30-06.
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp
I own both reload both and shoot both. Unfortunately I like them both. Neither one is a dedicated target rifle. The AR10B is sort of a relic from the late 50's and the M1 is a 1943 issue original.

If you're looking for the best target rifle in a .308 I shot one not too long ago. Both LEO's were issued custom made Remington sniper rifle with a modified Mauser style bolt, 12" suppressor, Harris bipods, and a recoil pad. I won't even go into scope. I just know I could see a tick on the target at 300yds. I can compare the recoil with my steel butt plate AR and can honestly say they felt just like a .22lr. I did manage to button hole the 1" diamond at 300yd with 8rnd. The ammo was NIB 168gr BTHP.
If you're interested in what they're shooting, I'm shooting with the group next Wed and I'll get more information if you want it. They did mention each rifle w/o scope, suppressor, or recoil pad were around 4,000.00 each.

 

[R.W.Dale]

Here's a pretty good article about .308 vs 30-06.
http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/AccuracyFacts.asp

I've read that article and I found that it would have been quite informative were it still 1955 otherwise there's nothing in there that pertains to modern bolt actions in the 21 century

 

[aspade]

At 1000yds a 30-06 shooting a 190grn matchking with a BC of .575 you end up with appx 70" of deflection from a 10mph crosswind

the 308 shooting a 168grn bullet at 2800 with a bc of .475 ends up with about 91" of deflection in the same wind

But comparing apples to apples, a 308 shooting the same 190 grain Matchking 150 fps slower doesn't drift 23% more, it drifts 9-10% more. At 600 yards in your 10 mph 90 degree wind the difference is less than 3 inches. BFD.

The only place the 308 really comes up short is 1000 yard target games where some loads go transonic at 950 while the -06 keeps going another 90 yards. 1000 yards is an arbitrary distance, if we shot 900 yard matches either one would do fine and if we shot 1100 they'd both suck.

 

[USSR]

What does .308 offer over .30-06 (besides a shorter action)?

Nothing really, unless you don't reload (their are more factory match loads for .308 than .30-06).

As I understand it, .308 was developed off of the .30-06. So what does .308 offer that a .30-06 cannot provide outside of the action length in a target rifle?

Actually, the .300 Savage was the inspiration for the .308. If you reload, the increased case capacity of the .30-06 allows you to run 190gr Sierra MatchKings (BC of .533, not .575) at 2900+fps, which at 1,000 yards leaves most .308 loads in the dust. If you don't reload, go with the .308.

Don

 

[cracked butt]

Actually, the .300 Savage was the inspiration for the .308.

Or maybe Americans invading Europe during WWII saw the 7.5MAS and thought to themselves "Gee, why didn't we think of that."
I don't think the .300 savage was an inspiration but more of a cartridge that came close to matching the abilities of the 7.5mas and allowed us to save face by not having to admit that the French had figured this whole thing out first

edit: the Germans (or Belgians?) beat savage and the French by 30 years of more with the 7.65x53 mauser which pretty much splits the difference between the .300 savage and 7.62 NATO.
Pretty hilarious when you consider that the US ordnance experts were looking for a cartridge that would give near 30-06 performance in a short action when a particular cartridge that met that criteria was developed 15 years before the 30-06.

 

[goon]

I think the .308 might get one more shot per pound of powder than the '06, maybe...
The '06 is extremely popular in my area - most gun stores will have a HUGE selection of ammo for it. The .308 isn't bad in this regard, but it's also not as catered to as the '06.
I've chosen .308 a number of times because I chose a .308 first. Because of that, I have experience, components, and reloading tools to make the most of it.
But other than a shorter action, I don't think that either offers enough advantage over the other that you could justify selling your .308 to buy an '06, or vice-versa.

In your case, since you're somewhat set up with '06's already, I think I'd seriously consider just sticking with that cartridge for your target rifle.

 

[4v50 Gary]

The article in the snipercountry link but the writer didn't mention why the 7.62 mm Nato is superior to the 30-06. Shorter case length is the advantage. Given the same powder charge in both cartridges, the 7.62 mm Nato is superior because the dispersion of powder in the case will be more consistent than in the longer 30-06. That is, that combustion is more consistent in the former than the latter.

Now, if one were to change the powder charge and load the 30-06 to M1 (pre-World War I standards), the 30-06 should be able to outshoot the 7.62 mm Nato. BTW, I'm too poor of a shot to prove either one superior.

 

[jackdanson]

BTW, I'm too poor of a shot to prove either one superior.

As are the vast majority of us. I would think the difference would be nil with most shooters.

 

[alemonkey]

I don't know that I buy the "inherent accuracy" stuff. Personally, I think the .308, while a great round, is the caliber du jour because it's used by the military and the .30-06 is out of favor because it's not any more. They're both great calibers and both capable of impressive accuracy.

 

[kingjoey]

The .308 was developed in order to get a slightly lighter and shorter cartridge with the same basic power as a 30.06. Longer cartridges require longer magazines and longer feed ramps so any shortening of the cartridge can make a big change in OAL of the action/weapon. Ballistically, the .308 and the 30.06 are very similar, but the larger case capacity is going to give the 30.06 an advantage for heavier bullets and longer barrels. The .308 was engineered around newer, faster burning propellants that were developed after WWII, but newer, slower burning propellants were also being developed that would allow large case cartridges to get a slow, controlled burn and get extra velocity due to the longer pressure/burn curve. However, slower burning powders and long barrels aren't of much use in an autoloading military service weapon as it means more weight and length. For military use, the .308 is a solid performer and fills its needed role, for bolt guns, long-range shooting, and some hunting applications, the 30.06 would have an advantage. I think you'd see the 30.06 setting a lot more long-range shooting records except that the 300WM which came out years after the .308 has taken the large-case/heavy-bullet a step further and is showing a large advantage in that role, their performance at the 1000yd line is testament to that.

 

[Z-Michigan]

Slightly more inherent accuracy due to the shorter case

Slightly less powder required for any given velocity (within the .308's envelope)

Slightly lower case cost due to smaller size

Potentially greater reliability in a semi-auto due to the shorter case

Shorter bolt throw in a bolt-action due to the shorter case

IMHO, you can pretty much flip a coin for most of these items, though if you do a lot of shooting the slight cost savings may add up. OTOH if you like long-range shooting, the ability to throw heavier, higher BC bullets at comparable speeds would be pretty significant in favor of the .06.

Hell I own a 7.62x39 that shoots on the .3's Most consider this the be the least inherently accurate cartridge ever devised

I'm sure that's why the 6mm PPC used by the benchrest folks is a derivative of that case.

 

[IROCZ]

I really think the USG was thinking more of cyclic rate (automatic fire) and cartridge effiency. Less weight probably didn't hurt anything either. At the time we were moving toward the class of weapon introduced to us by Germany, the select fire assault rifle concept. Both are great cartridges. I own both, I love both. Must be the Chimay typing, sorry.

 

[ziggy222]

30-06 is cheaper to buy than 308nato these days.308 had smaller lighter packaging with close to the same performance in the bullet weight they use for combat.plus shorter actions

 

[USSR]

Or maybe Americans invading Europe during WWII saw the 7.5MAS and thought to themselves "Gee, why didn't we think of that."
I don't think the .300 savage was an inspiration but more of a cartridge that came close to matching the abilities of the 7.5mas and allowed us to save face by not having to admit that the French had figured this whole thing out first

It's highly unlikely that the team responsible for the development of the 7.62x51 were the ones who invaded Europe and 'saw the 7.5MAS and thought to themselves "Gee, why didn't we think of that" '. If you read about the development of the 7.62x51, you will see that they decided on a .30 caliber, and they specifically mention the .300 Savage as their inspiration. There is no mention of any foreign cartridge as their inspiration, least of all, mon Dieu , a French cartridge.

Don