Differences between 7.62 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser

[verb0s]

A bit of back story-
I am presented the opportunity to pick up one of my wishlist guns- a Mauser C96 (looks like an Astra 900 carbine, modern reproduction) The store didn't know much about it and actually misidentified the caliber as 9mm! If I hadn't gone as far as to measure the muzzle diameter (0.311) I probably would have bought it thinking it's 9mm and then blown it up!
It's actually in 7.63x25 which bring up a dilemma for me- buy my dream gun but can't shoot it due to lack of ammo, or pass this up and probably never see another one for sale (I'm in CA, guns of this kind are rare as hen's teeth)

I handload and that's usually the answer whenever I buy a gun in an odd or obscure caliber. I was looking into loading 7.63 Masuer and I've discovered contrary to internet information, it looks like 7.62 Tokarev is the lower, lighter loading than 7.63 Mauser.

Loading 7.63 Mauser ammo uses 7.62 Tokarev dies, and the load data looks identical. CIP maximum pressure for 7.62 Tokarev is 34,000 but 7.63 Mauser is 37,000.

I have alot of polish surplus 7.62 Tokarev. If tokarev ammunition is loaded to lower, lighter specification than 7.63 Mauser, it would be an easy solution to this ammunition problem.

So I'm asking is, does anyone know or can point to a solid, reliable source, that whether 7.62 Tokarev is compatible with 7.63 Mauser, and whether it could safely shoot 7.62 Tokarev in a 7.63 Masuer carbine.

ps, Mods, if this is better in the reloading forum pls move it there

 

[rcmodel]

Some of the com-block surplus Tokarev ammo is loaded to much higher pressure then the 7.62 Mauser ever was, due to it's use in sub-machineguns back in the day.

I would trust new commercial 7.62 TOK in an old Mauser 96.
But I would not trust old mil-sup com-block TOK ammo in a Mauser 96.

Here is the actual case dimensions.
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/30-Mauser-Brass/

https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/762x25-Tokarev-Brass/

American reloading data pressure is conservative for both calibers.
So if you use the right brass, and your gun will cycle with SAAMI spec data you should be fine.

Just avoid some of the old mil-sup communist surplus ammo.

It is all corrosive & Berdan primed anyway, so you can't realistically reload it.

rc

 

[Jim K]

They are the same. Pre-Russian revolution, the Communists bought a number of Mauser pistols and liked the caliber. So as soon as they could, they developed a new pistol, more modern and reliable and easier to manufacture in Russia. That was the Tokarev, first the Model 30 then the Model 33. Since they liked the Mauser round, they chambered the new pistol for it. But there were a lot of Mausers around and they served through WWII, so the Russians did not, in spite of many stories, issue "super hot" ammo for the Tokarev that would blow up Mausers (or vice versa). Nor did the Czechs issue "super hot" ammo that would work in their VZ-52 but would blow up the Mausers and Tokarevs in the service of their Russian masters. (Ammo in the Warsaw Pact bloc was fully interchangeable -or else; the Czech effort to produce a different rifle caliber was squelched and they were forced to rework the guns to use 7.62x39.)

Jim

 

[Ron James]

The main problem with Com-Block 7.62X25 is consistency. They had very littlie quality control ( If any ), different lots will be a little hotter than others . not to mention the quality of the brass casing used. If I were going to use 7.62X25 in a C96 or it's kin, I would use off the shelf , not surplus. But then again, knowing how hard parts are to find for the C96 and how hard it is find anyone who knows how to work on them, I would hand load a smite milder load or find someone to reload for me. JMO

 

[303tom]

The 7.63mm Mauser cartridge was the basis for the 7.62mm Tokarev, adopted by the Soviet Union. Although the case dimensions of the two cartridges are nearly identical, the 7.62mm Tokarev has a stronger powder charge and is generally not suited for use in Mauser C96 pistols or other firearms chambered for 7.63mm Mauser. However, the 7.63mm Mauser could be used in firearms chambered for the 7.62mm Tokarev:

 

[Willie Sutton]

Willies advice, worth what you'll pay for it and not a penny more...


1: Buy it and then order $100 worth of Starline brass, reload nice, clean, noncorrosive, reloadable, low pressure spec ammo, and enjoy it.

2: Shoot the cheap comblok surplus ammo in cheap comblok pistols.


Willie

.

 

[deadin]

Another wise thing to do is, unless you are sure they have already been replaced, is to order a C96 spring kit from Wolfe and replace all the springs. If you want to chance not replacing the Mag spring, order Service Pak 1,otherwise Service Pak 2. The worse that can happen with a weak mag spring is feeding problems. Weak other springs can cause damage to the gun. Check the Bolt Stop carefully for cracks and battering as this is the part that suffers the most from a weak recoil spring (or hot ammo).

 

[Jim K]

I will say again that the cartridges are the same, and Tokarev ammo is not hotter than pre-WWI loads for the C96. Now whether or not to shoot a C96 Mauser, a collectors item with none newer than the 1930's, that is another issue, but one that would be true with any ammo.

Jim

 

[desidog]

Why you you want to shoot cheap corrosive surplus through a gun "as rare as hens teeth"?

 

[Jim Watson]

Beats me, but at one time there was considerable Internet Interest in a "modern" pistol to shoot Slobbovian Surplus 7.62x25. Even a project to rebarrel the Super .38 Colt.


Ezell gives the velocity of Mauser ammunition at 443 mps, 1453 fps; Tokarev at 457 mps, 1498 fps, which is nothing I would get excited about. I don't know where he got his numbers. In 1939 Winchester cataloged .30 Mauser at 1397 fps but Remington only 1380. No Tokarevs in the Free World at that time, of course.

 

[rcmodel]

There were sure a lot of reports of CZ-52's with cracked locking blocks and galled rollers when they, and some of the com-block surplus 7.62x25 ammo were being imported in huge shipments several years ago.

I no longer remember which ammo was considered excessively hot, or had wide variations in pressure.(Bulgarian maybe??)

But myself, I would not shoot any of it in a collectable C-96 .30 Mauser.

rc

 

[Jim K]

Yes, I saw reports of blown-up guns littering the landscape because of this or that kind of 7.62x25 ammo (or 9mm Parabellum, or 8mm Mauser, or .30-'06, or .45 ACP, or .38 Special, or .357 Magnum. etc., etc). I was never able to actually see any of the blown-up guns or the ammo involved.

Jim

 

[bubba15301]

do not shoot surplus tokarev ammo in a mauser. chronographed surplus thru a cz52 - 1580 fps. Fiochi makes 7.63 mauser ammo. tok ammo is hotter

 

[Dr.Rob]

Fiocchi and Privi make 7.63 Mauser ammo. It might be harder to GET in California but not impossible.

http://georgia-arms.com/fiocchi30luger93grsoftpoint50pk-1.aspx

 

[deadin]

I just had a friend give me 5 or 600 rounds of Tok. All Berdan, various European makers. I have two C96's, so my choices are: 1. Pull it down for the bullets. 2. Pull it down and reload with a lighter charge. 3. Pick up a cheap something that I can shoot it in. (Note: Nowhere is there a choice of just go ahead and use it in my Brooms....)

I'm leaning toward choice #1 as #2 seems a lot of work for just 1 shot (and dealing with possible corrosive priming) and I'm discovering there are very few what I would call "cheap" shooters available. (Even the Chinese versions are running well into the $250-300 range around here.)

 

[Carl N. Brown]

^ Choice #2 is what I did for the years I shot my C96 in the local black powder cartridge matches. I would pull the Tokarev bullets, replace the powder charge with 1.0cc Triple7 and (because the bore was worn out on mine) load with a larger diameter bullet.

Try shooting standard factory 7.62 Tokarev in a CZ-52 then shoot standard factory 7.63 Mauser in a CZ-52; there is a noticeable difference to me.

Published factory ballistics show higher velocity for 7.62x25 Tokarev, lower velocity for 7.63 Mauser. However,
.30 Mauser, 7,63 Mauser, 7.63x25mm Mauser

W.H.B. Smith, "Small Arms of the World", Stackpole, 1966
7.63 Mauser WWII military issue, 1575 fps from 5.5 inch barrel, Mauser 1932 version of the C96.

Prvi Partizan PPU Serbia
7.63x25 85gr bullet 460 mps (1495 fps) from 150mm 6 inch barrel.

U.S. commercial .30 Mauser in the 1970 Gun Digest
7.63 Mauser US commercial, 1410 fps from C96 .

And,
7.62x25mm Tokarev, various sources.

Prvi Partizan PPU Serbia
7.62x25 85gr bullet 525 mps (1706 fps) from 250mm 10 inch barrel.

Sellier&Bellot S&B Czech
7.62x25 85gr bullet 503 mps (1630 fps) from 120mm 4.8 inch barrel.

W.H.B. Smith, "Small Arms of the World", Stackpole, 1966
7.62x25 Russian WWII issue, 1640 fps from 10.6 inch barrel (PPSh 41).
7.62x25 Russian WWII issue, 1378 fps from TT33 Tokarev pistol.
7.62x25 Czech M48 ammo, 1800 fps from 11.2 inch barrel (M24 and M26)
7.62x25 Czech M48 ammo, 1600 fps from CZ52 pistol.

 

[Jim K]

So, where are all the blown up guns? They should be littering the landscape. The only gun I know that was severely damaged (breech block cracked) with 7.62 Tokarev ammo was a Borchardt.

Again, the C96 Mauser is a collectors item and I recommend not firing one with anything except very moderate handloads. But that is not the same as saying that I can't walk down the street without falling over pieces of blown up Mausers.

Jim

 

[MI2600]

I have one C96 in 7.63 (.30 Mauser) and two in 9mm. I have reloaded the 7.63 using 7.62X25 brass, with only fair results, using an 86gr JSP bullet with 4.5 gr of Bullseye. I incurred a lot of failure to completely eject, i.e. the ejected shell jammed in line with the barrel. I'm not sure if was a spring or power problem.

I did recently pick up 150 once-fired 7.63 brass on another gun site for $7.50. I'll have to give them a try.

These guns are alleged to be weaker than the Tokarevs and I'm not going to try to find out!