Dillon Powder Funnel too large?

[arthury]

I bought the 550B to load the 500SW cartridge and noticed that on the Powder Funnel (PF) , it is stamped 50AE. When I called up Dillon CS, they said this is good to go for the 500SW as well. I think the PF is too large in diameter.

Here's the issue I am facing. With the PF detached from the machine, I tried to slide the PF into a re-sized 500SW case (which is up to specs) by hand, I had a hard time getting the PF into the case without putting moderate pressure. In doing so, the upper part of the case (about 0.5") became enlarged beyond specs.

Ideally, I am expecting the case to slide into the PF without resistance until it is much closer to mouth, where the flaring should take place. Looks like the PF is too thick in diameter for the 500SW so much so that it not only flared the mouth but also the top 0.5" of the case.

Any recommendations on how I should manage this issue? Should I polish down the bottom part of the PF?

I am using the reputable Starline brass, just so you know.

 

[MtnCreek]

It sounds like the powder die needs to be raised. Pop the funnel out of the measure and compare to a case.

 

[arthury]

It sounds like the powder die needs to be raised. Pop the funnel out of the measure and compare to a case.

I did raise it but then the bell at the mouth becomes too small for me to place the bullet without it sliding around.

 

[Otto]

The 500S&W/50AE funnel (part # 14465) is an oversized funnel. Oversize funnels require a XL Powder Die (part # 21253).
Did you purchase the correct parts?

 

[rcmodel]

Starline brass might be a tad thicker case mouth then .50AE brass.

I'd just turn down the offending part until it works like you want it too.

rc

 

[MtnCreek]

I did raise it but then the bell at the mouth becomes too small for me to place the bullet without it sliding around.

You lost me there. It takes me a few min to get the die adjusted just right for the proper bell. I'm using a 650, so this may be a little different. I start with the little plastic bushing just reaching the end of stroke on the measure (like you would for a rifle cartridge). Then adjust the die in a little at a time till I get the desired bell.

 

[arthury]

The 500S&W/50AE funnel (part # 14465) is an oversized funnel. Oversize funnels require a XL Powder Die (part # 21253).
Did you purchase the correct parts?

The 550B was ordered for the 500SW caliber over the phone. I'm hoping Dillon would know what to use for the Powder Die.
Yes, I believe I have the XL Powder Die; otherwise, the 50AE Powder Funnel would be too large to slide into the Powder Die.

 

[arthury]

You lost me there. It takes me a few min to get the die adjusted just right for the proper bell. I'm using a 650, so this may be a little different. I start with the little plastic bushing just reaching the end of stroke on the measure (like you would for a rifle cartridge). Then adjust the die in a little at a time till I get the desired bell.

I edited my original post to make myself clearer. Sorry for the confusion and take a look at the text highlighted in red.

Thanks!

 

[arthury]

Could the re-sizing die be off-specs and the root cause of the issue?

 

[loneviking]

The powder die is not going to fit into the case. Setting up the powder die is a two step process.

First, make sure you have the right powder bar. With the funnel and die screwed down a ways into the toolhead, set the powder dispenser and bar on top of the die. Make sure the powder bar is completely closed with the ram at rest. Put an unprimed case in the shell holder and raise the ram. You need to adjust the die until the powder bar is closed at rest and all the way back with the ram at the top. When you have the powder bar sliding back and forth properly, the funnel should be belling the case properly. If not, screw the die down a little bit and try again.

Second, with the slide actuating and the bell right, its time to adjust for powder. there is a small nut on the end of your powder bar. Before I put a powder bar in, I turn that nut until the sliding bar is closed. If you don't do that,someday you will dump a large powder charge all over the place!

Now, with the slide closed all you do is turn the nut a bit, then run the ram up and down. Weigh the powder dispensed and dump the powder back into the measure. Repeat until you have the charge you want.

That's it!

 

[noylj]

Let's talk expander, OK?
First, the case ID over most of the distance that the bullet will be seated needs to be 0.001-0.002" less than bullet diameter. If you are shooting REAL jacketed bullets, you can get away with less case expansion, at the risk of the bullet seating crooked and bulging the case where the walls are thinnest. For lead and plated bullets, you REALLY need to get properly sized expander.
I find that I can get custom expander for the Lee PTE dies fairly cheaply and the Lyman M-dies can use a wide range of expander plugs (and, they'll make you custom one if their stock in not sufficient.
First, measure the case ID after resizing. It should be at least 0.004" less than bullet diameter. Then, following the manufacturer's instructions (and the Dillon PFs are very easy to use), expand the case ID (don't even worry about case mouth flare/belling, we are concerned only with the case ID) and measure the case ID. Measure the powder funnel expander plug OD (not the flare/belling section).
If the case ID is 0.003" or less than the bullet OD, you need a larger expander plug.
If the case ID is larger than 0.001" less than bullet OD, you need a smaller expander plug or a tighter sizing die or cases with thicker walls. You need to make measurements to determine where your problem is.
In over 45 years, I have never seen an overly large expander plug that wasn't a custom job for a specific reason.
On thing that will happen is as the cases get used, they work harden. As they harden, they will spring back down in size more than a virgin dead-soft annealed case, so you may need to adjust the expander plug for old cases. For handguns, this is seldom a real problem (unless you are working for minimum group size and working to keep every reloading action in the "ideal" region) and for bottle-neck cartridges, it is fairly easy to anneal the case mouths back to dead-soft.

 

[rfwobbly]

I tried to slide the PF into a re-sized 500SW case (which is up to specs) by hand, I had a hard time getting the PF into the case without putting moderate pressure. In doing so, the upper part of the case (about 0.5") became enlarged beyond specs.

I do not reload 500, but if I understand your question correctly, then you may simply not understand the sizing steps. Due to the "springiness" of brass, you cannot move it by .001", you have to move it about .003 -.004" to get anything done. Therein lies the issue.

► The sizing die takes the outside of the case to well under the bullet diameter. Exact ID results will be determined by your case wall thickness, since the ID is the result of the sizing die working only the outside of the case. Brass wall thickness varies widely from brand to brand.
► The internal expander (lower part of the FP) expands the inside case mouth back out to the correct bullet holding size. So, the expander won't ever simply glide easily into the case mouth. It's doing important work.
► The upper part of the FP also bells the case on Dillon equipment. So as the FP drops deeper, it leaves a bell mouth, which should be about .010" larger.

The finished, belled case should have an ID that is smaller than the bullet, that's why the belling has to be there. Then the crimp die function reverses the belling in later steps.

So take your naked bullet and measure the OD. Then measure the OD of the lower, cylindrical portion of the FP. The FP should be somewhat smaller as noted above. If the FP is smaller than the bullet, and the FP slides up and down inside the powder die, then all is well.

Hope this helps!

 

[Flintknapper]

Any recommendations on how I should manage this issue? Should I polish down the bottom part of the PF?

I am using the reputable Starline brass, just so you know.

Call Starline and see if they have information about this.

It common for the Dillon powder funnel for the 45 acp and 40 S&W to stick in the case, and they will even modify your funnel for free if you send it to them (Starline).

The same thing might be true for your 500.

I had the problem you describe with my 45 acp funnel and I corrected it by lightly tapping a 1/4" phillips hex screwdriver bit into the top of the funnel (just enough to hold it) so I could chuck it in my drill. Don't hammer too hard, just create a slight interference fit.

Then using some 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper (held between thumb and index finger) I put a high polish on the first 3/8" of the bottom of the funnel. Problem solved.

In fact...I lightly polished every funnel (designed to flare) the same way....and all have worked beautifully since.

 

[DILLONHELP]

The powder funnel should not be a slip-fit into the case mouth of a sized piece of brass. The size die will size the case neck to tighter than you really want it, then the bottom portion of the funnel opens the case mouth portion to a uniform inside diameter. Then the 45 degree flaring shoulder contacts the case mouth and actually flares it, so the bullet isn't shaved when it is seated. We suggest flaring case mouths at least .010", no more than .020". If you need moer assistance, please phone us when you can be in front of the machine for asssitance.800-223-4570

 

[arthury]

Thank you, folks, for chipping in to help me.

Now that I am getting my facts straight, I'm ready to hook up my D550B for the next batch of 500SW cartridge reloads.

Thanks again.

 

[arthury]

50AE vs 500SW: neck sizes different

As some of you may know, the powder funnel (PF) used by Dillon for the 500SW cartridge is actually for the 50AE (the cartridge size is clearly stamped on the PF). I called Dillon and they said it's the same.

Based on the SAAMI specs on the right column of each cartridge in the links below, it appears that the neck of the 50AE is bigger than the the 500SW (.540" vs .526"). That leads me back to question whether the use of the 50AE powder funnel to flare a 500SW case is a wise thing or not.

Since the PF is for the 50AE (which has a larger neck), the PF would have to support that size. Consequently, when it's used for the 500SW (with a smaller neck), the PF would have enlarged the neck of the 500SW case more than what it's needed. What do you guys think? Am I making sense here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.50AE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.500_S&W_Magnum

 

[hentown]

I'm not going to wade through the posts above mine before I state the obvious: OF course, you can't just slide the powder funnel down into a sized case!!! How the hell do you think the mouth gets belled???

 

[Hondo 60]

arthury -

Just to let you know, the 500 S&W link in post #16 doesn't work.

It should read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/500_S&W

 

[Wayne_E]

I have no experience with either cartridge but according to the specs in the above links, both have bullet diameters of .500. So using the same powder funnel seems acceptable.