Disabled discrimination at a range?

[BullfrogKen]

If the club's By-laws require members to participate in a club-sponsored competition that could be a sticking point. And I have seen mandatory participation in a club-sponsored match at least once each calendar year a pre-condition for membership before.


Private membership club = Do what the club requires for membership to join their organization. Those are all issues surrounding what a member's-only club decides will constitute the conditions for entrance and access to their organization's assets. Some limit it to geographic region. Others mandate NRA membership. And yes some mandate participation in at least one of their club's organized competitions.

Private organizations of any type reserve the right to set the conditions upon which an individual may be granted admission into their membership. That includes non-for-profit gun clubs.


Again, from what the OP has said this far, the President of the organization has tried to make an accomodation.

It's not the case that he has volunteers that can't be fired. That's inaccurate. They're elected Board Members that must be removed from office according to the club's Constitution and By-Laws.

Anyway. If the President of the club is trying to work with you, that should tell you that you've got someone of the highest authority in the club who has taken an interest in seeing that you get admitted. Board Members who go astray from their President's desires seem to find themselves out of an office, even elected ones. Take that from someone who's been a Club President before.


What I'm seeing is a Club President taking a personal interest in admitting a member when he's probably got 60 - 100 people a month, each month since December, submitting applications to join. That counts for a lot, my friends.

 

[ngnrd]

I guess I'm not seeing the discrimination here.

First, you can't meet the requirements for membership (shoot at a qualifying event), but, for a fee, they were going to waive the portion of those requirements that you couldn't meet (you never said what shooting at a qualifying event would cost, so there's no way to tell if the additional fee would have been punitive/discriminatory or not).

Then, you present - as evidence of discrimination - the fact that during a separate/unrelated activity, the club's Safety Director advised you to call the club for membership. Why would you expect the Safety Director to tell you anything different? Unless that's not how people typically join... but you haven't said that.

Further, you are presenting as discrimination the fact that the Safety Director didn't call you back. But, you also said that his phone was shut off for a couple of days, and that you left multiple messages. This is the same person who's CCW class you admitted disrupting every 20-30 minutes for four hours. So...First, how was he supposed to know you were calling if his phone was shut off? And, second, would it be so unreasonable to think that he didn't call you back simply because you irritate him, and not because of anything to do with your disability?

Finally, in regard to the Civil Rights Act of 1964, there are certain exemptions for "bona fide private clubs". So, if this a PRIVATE gun club, there may not be any legal requirements that they accept any/all applicants that meet their criteria for membership. They may reject any application they choose, for whatever reason they want to.

So, again... based on what you have posted so far, I'm not necessarily seeing (illegal) discrimination here.



Also, just for the sake of clarity, the EEOC has nothing to do with anything other than employer/employee discrimination. Thus, their name - Equal EMPLOYMENT Opportunity Commission.

 

[WALKERs210]

In this stage of our country you would think that discrimination should be a thing of the past. In 98-99 I joined a club for flying R/C Airplanes, just after I joined the club the person doing the clubs news letter had to quit due to other commitments. The club at the time had around 150 members and producing a news letter and mailing could and did take quite a bit of time. I volunteered because I wanted to show appreciation and I had the equipment to do this. My wife took hold and was editing and producing a news letter that averaged 4-6 pages each month in full color and setup a data base for mailing to insure each member received their copy. Prior to our work the news letter consisted of one single page with financial report and a half paragraph from the president of club. After three months of putting this out my wife and I received so much hate and discontent we left the club even after a vast majority gave praise for the work done. It was almost like the old "Spankie and Our Gang" and their HE MAN SHE HATERS CLUB', and it was not just aimed at my wife but any female that even wanted to spend time at the field with their husband. If a club wants to treat you this way you should just thank them for showing their true colors and look else where for a better class of people.

 

[ngnrd]

The word "discrimination" carries with it a negative connotation, but it isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Free men have the right to associate - or not associate - with whomever they choose. If I want to hang out with a group of like minded hunters, I don't necessarily want vegans or PETA members at the monthly meetings. And, maybe I don't want women there either. But, that's discrimination. It's just not illegal discrimination. I also have the right to choose to not associate with individuals based on race, color, creed, religion, disability, et cetera. It may not be politically correct, but it is still my natural right.

However, businesses don't have that right. Specifically, the entire Civil Rights Act is based on the Commerce Clause of the constitution. That is, if a business conducts any kind of transaction for anything that has moved across state lines, the federal government has the authority to mandate that all individuals, regardless of (insert one of several legal discriminatory qualifiers here), have the right to conduct that business on an equal playing field. So, although the owner of a sporting goods store has to conduct business with me if I'm disabled, Catholic, Chineese, etc., they may choose to discriminate based on "non-protected" criteria. Thus, there are signs posted in businesses all over this country that state - no shirt, no shoes, no service - and - we reserve the right to refuse service to anybody. This is obviously discrimination, it's just legal discrimination. And that's OK.

This is not the case with groups of like-minded individuals (private clubs) participating in group activities. If a private club doesn't want somebody as a member because of their religion, race, shoe size, financial status, or disability, they can't be forced by the government to grant membership. Some folks think that's wrong. I don't happen to be one of those people. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't want my local bank to process my loan application based on the color of my skin. And I wouldn't want to be barred from admission to the local viewing of the latest Star Trek movie because of my religion.

But, the fact is, I am a member of organizations that legally discriminate in approving its members. For instance, some discriminate based on level and quality of education. And, I wouldn't want the government telling these organizations that they had to admit high school dropouts or mail-order Ph.D.'s. Just like I wouldn't want the government telling the local auto racing club that they had to accept a blind paraplegic as a member, with full access to their private racetrack. Of course, if that same blind paraplegic wasn't allowed to buy a ticket to attend a race the club was sponsoring, that would be illegal.

I still don't know what the actual situation is with the OP's shooting club, or if there is any actual legal discrimination happening there. But, I'm not willing to jump on the "sic the gub'mint on 'em" bandwagon just yet.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Private Clubs CAN discriminate

Let me say that again.

Private clubs CAN discriminate.

Membership to a private, non-for-profit gun club often carries more than just the access to the property and the opporunity to use it so you can go blast caps. And while that may be the reason why 95% of the people join it, in addition membership usually carries the right to vote on club business and participation in the elections for the Board of Directors.

A private gun club can discriminate. The foremost reason is that membershp into the club also carries voting rights.

It can discriminate and tell an anti-gun applicant we don't want you as a member - Application for membership denied. That's perfectly within a gun club's rights. And frankly it damn well better do that.

It can also say, "we don't believe that you've demonstrated you can shoot on our unsupervised property safely" - membership denied.

A gun club can even say, "this club exists to provide our membership a venue to compete in _____ and ______ and _____ competitions, and if you do not participate in these competitive sporting events, or work to further the mission of the organization to promote such and such sporting events" they can deny entrance into the club.


None of those are per se ADA violations. They are operating fully within the pervue of the organization to deny entrance to applicants who do not have the desire to further the mission of the organization.

If an applicant wants to join that organization and further that organization's mission but cannot perform the task himself, or cannot participate in it's stated goal - the promotion of and participation in organized competition - some exceptions can be made.


A legally blind man has a constitutionally guaranteed right to purchase a gun.

Yet we would all agree a legally blind man seeking access to a private, members-only shooting range could be denied membership. There also could be an accomodation the range might make to accomodate him, but it would be an unreasonable accomodation upon the organization to provide him a suitably staffed range to use that would not endanger those other members around him who would be there to use it along side him.


So, non-for-profit gun clubs can discriminate. They can deny entrance to those who would seek to destroy their club. They can also deny entrance to those who they cannot reasonably accomodate for safety concerns. They can even deny entance to - and expell - someone who says, "to hell with your safety rules, I think I'm safe and I'll do whatever I want".


From what I've seen so far this skirts the line between the mission of the club - promoting participation in it's matches - and a reasonable compensation in lieu of those matches as a result of physical inability to compete.

There are a fair amount of clubs who organized as 501 (c7) non-for-profits and submitted charters to their State and the IRS to be recognized as such in their mission and filings. They can make exceptions to membership, but they do have some latitute to discriminate because they are a private club as opposed to a for-profit business that is truly open to the public.


So the short-winded answer is yes, this club can deny membership - even to a disabled veteran - if the disability requires an unreasonable accomodation to use the facilities. If it requires participation in it's activities as a condition of membership, it can waive it. But depending on the totaility of the circumstances it can also deny it.



From what I've seen so far you have a President trying to work with you.


Why would anyone suggest acting like a schmuck and get this club in a substantial, expensive battle with the Federal government if the President is trying to accomodate an applicant?

 

[45_auto]

He then told me I STILL had to pass the board vote with Dumb and Dumber representing 40% of the vote. I declined. The papers from the DOJ arrived today and i will fill them out shortly.

Sounds to me like you really don't want to join the club, you just want to cause problems. Does it require a unanimous vote by the board to let you in? I haven't seen anything the club has been unreasonable about in anything that you have posted. It would probably be very interesting to hear their side of the story.

If anything is recovered 100% will go to the Wounded Worrier Project.

Have you ever heard the term "Freudian Slip"? Hopefully the above is a typo (you meant Warrior, not Worrier). However, based on the attitude I get from your posts, it may not be!

 

[Walkalong]

Work with the President who is trying to work with you and get into the club, then be the nicest guy around that everyone wants to be around and be helpful to. Be a positive force. Even be nice to dumb and dumber, and maybe even they will come around.

 

[HexHead]

Forgot to mention. The club president called me trying to smooth things over. He said " I CAN'T FIRE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE VOLUNTEERS" 4-5 TIMES. I finally cooled down and said I would bury the hatchet. He then told me I STILL had to pass the board vote with Dumb and Dumber representing 40% of the vote. I declined. The papers from the DOJ arrived today and i will fill them out shortly.

If anything is recovered 100% will go to the Wounded Worrier Project.

So Jeff and Randy are 40% of the vote. That leaves the other 60% that can easily overrule any objections they may have.

 

[HexHead]

Let me say that again.

Private clubs CAN discriminate.

Membership to a private, non-for-profit gun club often carries more than just the access to the property and the opporunity to use it so you can go blast caps. And while that may be the reason why 95% of the people join it, in addition membership usually carries the right to vote on club business and participation in the elections for the Board of Directors.

A private gun club can discriminate. The foremost reason is that membershp into the club also carries voting rights.

It can also say, "we don't believe that you've demonstrated you can shoot on our unsupervised property safely" - membership denied.

A gun club can even say, "this club exists to provide our membership a venue to compete in _____ and ______ and _____ competitions, and if you do not participate in these competitive sporting events, or work to further the mission of the organization to promote such and such sporting events" they can deny entrance into the club.


None of those are per se ADA violations. They are operating fully within the pervue of the organization to deny entrance to applicants who do not have the desire to further the mission of the organization.

They may also be concerned that your disability at an unsupervised range may be a potential liability they don't want to risk.

 

[itsa pain]

Let me say that again.

Private clubs CAN discriminate.

Membership to a private, non-for-profit gun club often carries more than just the access to the property and the opporunity to use it so you can go blast caps. And while that may be the reason why 95% of the people join it, in addition membership usually carries the right to vote on club business and participation in the elections for the Board of Directors.

A private gun club can discriminate. The foremost reason is that membershp into the club also carries voting rights.

It can discriminate and tell an anti-gun applicant we don't want you as a member - Application for membership denied. That's perfectly within a gun club's rights. And frankly it damn well better do that.

It can also say, "we don't believe that you've demonstrated you can shoot on our unsupervised property safely" - membership denied.

A gun club can even say, "this club exists to provide our membership a venue to compete in _____ and ______ and _____ competitions, and if you do not participate in these competitive sporting events, or work to further the mission of the organization to promote such and such sporting events" they can deny entrance into the club.


None of those are per se ADA violations. They are operating fully within the pervue of the organization to deny entrance to applicants who do not have the desire to further the mission of the organization.

If an applicant wants to join that organization and further that organization's mission but cannot perform the task himself, or cannot participate in it's stated goal - the promotion of and participation in organized competition - some exceptions can be made.


A legally blind man has a constitutionally guaranteed right to purchase a gun.

Yet we would all agree a legally blind man seeking access to a private, members-only shooting range could be denied membership. There also could be an accomodation the range might make to accomodate him, but it would be an unreasonable accomodation upon the organization to provide him a suitably staffed range to use that would not endanger those other members around him who would be there to use it along side him.


So, non-for-profit gun clubs can discriminate. They can deny entrance to those who would seek to destroy their club. They can also deny entrance to those who they cannot reasonably accomodate for safety concerns. They can even deny entance to - and expell - someone who says, "to hell with your safety rules, I think I'm safe and I'll do whatever I want".


From what I've seen so far this skirts the line between the mission of the club - promoting participation in it's matches - and a reasonable compensation in lieu of those matches as a result of physical inability to compete.

There are a fair amount of clubs who organized as 501 (c7) non-for-profits and submitted charters to their State and the IRS to be recognized as such in their mission and filings. They can make exceptions to membership, but they do have some latitute to discriminate because they are a private club as opposed to a for-profit business that is truly open to the public.


So the short-winded answer is yes, this club can deny membership - even to a disabled veteran - if the disability requires an unreasonable accomodation to use the facilities. If it requires participation in it's activities as a condition of membership, it can waive it. But depending on the totaility of the circumstances it can also deny it.



From what I've seen so far you have a President trying to work with you.


Why would anyone suggest acting like a schmuck and get this club in a substantial, expensive battle with the Federal government if the President is trying to accomodate an applicant?

amen. if sarah brady wanted to join the club they should not allow it either I sometimes think I am on an ACLU site here. and I cannot get over the amount of people disabled here. we have given plenty to the disabled including ramps tens of millions of VIP parking spaces where I see most of them jog into the store

 

[Queen_of_Thunder]

If you are a veteran and rated 100% your membership at one of our local outdoor ranges is free. If you are just a regular civilian its $95 for a year and that includes a 10% off items in the pro shop for all members.


BTW check to see if their bathrooms/ porta pottys are handicap accessible. Also the requirement to shoot competitively can be construde as a barrier.

Some questions.

Do you know what the rules are for members who become disabled. Are the kicked out of the club. Does the Club own the land or possibly lease it from a local government if leased from the local goverment then they are in hot water.

 

[itsa pain]

The ADA act like everything else has morphed into a monster and out of control. there has been tens of billions spent on the ADA and some were put out of business money wise trying to comply. if a guy had to disrupt the class and do yoga every 20 minutes I would walk out. like every extra privleged minority in this country the disabled have become a pain in the neck while screaming they want to be treated like everyone else

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

He said " I CAN'T FIRE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE VOLUNTEERS" 4-5 TIMES.

Bull pucky. I've been a volunteer for many things over my life, and yes a volunteer can be "fired". All that means is the person isn't allowed to do whatever job it is they were doing...there just isn't any pay involved.

As BBQJOE said, I don't think I'd want to be a member of a club like this.

As to membership dues...they are whatever they say they are in writing. Unless they put it in different writing, and you agree to it, this means that the membership dues on their website is what they are.

From the home page of their website: "Membership in the Atlanta Conservation Club, Inc. is open to everyone meeting the stated requirements. These requirements are solely for the purpose of ensuring that the Atlanta Conservation Club remains a safe place for recreation and competition."

So, the shooting requirements seem to be their to show proficiency with respect to safety.

The first requirement listed says "Shoot or Work 2 Matches/Events". (Emphasis my own.) This says that working a match/event meets the requirement. Check this out to see what it means and whether or not your disability will allow you to do any of the work.

The fourth requirement, which deals with fees, says "New applications, accompanied by all fees, dues, and other charges as set by the Board, must be submitted to the Membership Director for processing."
This implies that the board has the right to set additional charges. How this is done is something you need to ask about, but it may indeed mean that you would have to pay an additional fee for some reason.

Charging an additional fee because you're disabled and unable to meet some of the other requirements doesn't necessarily increase the safety factor they are so concerned about...however, it MAY be something they can do because the increased fee may be associated more with a liability/insurance factor.

NOW, all that said, I'm very much against giving my hard earned money, time, and resources to people/organizations who are quite evidently NOT polite, considerate, or otherwise appreciative of me and mine. If these people are giving you that much of a hassle over this, I'd simply recommend taking your business elsewhere.

However, I realize that this may be somewhat of an inconvenience to you, depending on location, availability, and travel requirements.

I'm originally from Indiana, however, and much of the area around where you are at is quite rural...you may look into finding friends/relatives who live out in the country nearby, where outdoor shooting on private property is possible. Or put out some feelers among your friends and relatives and find someone like that who would meet your needs.

Growing up in Indiana, I can remember knocking on the door of homes in the country and asking if I could squirrel hunt on their property. Many times I'd get a welcome, along with advice on where to go and what directions to be cautious in.

Try googling some resources for other outdoor ranges, too. Here's a link to Indiana's DNR shooting ranges, for example:

http://www.in.gov/dnr/fishwild/3648.htm

Most are free to to the public, open on the hours listed. Those which charge a fee list them. See if there are any near you. If all you're going to do is occasional shooting, it might be worth the drive...certainly the drive itself can be part of the experience.

Wilber-Write in New Castle or J. Edward Roush Lake (Huntington) might be options.

 

[jdh]

BBQJOE,

"I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member."

Groucho Marx

 

[jdh]

Hope you also reconsider your support for the Wounded "Worrier" Project based on their position that those wounded veterans should be denied access to firearms based on their potential to use them inappropriately.

 

[gym]

This sounds like a homeowners association in Florida. You honestlly have to ask yourself if you even want to be around a bunch of guys who are going to be told that you did all sorts of things that "you may or may not have", to gain membership. I can't see you enjoying your time there.
I am disabled also, since 1999, and no one can tell because I spend time in the gym every day to build the supporting structure around my spine, but can't stand or sit for more than 1/2 hour at a time, no long drives etc.
I know I would feel uncomfortable with people who didn't want me there. Even thoug it's a shallow mentality on their part.
If they do a lot of physical stuff, like practice drills, and you can't participate, it's probablly not the club for you.
But do what you feel is right, we only know what you told us.

 

[KMatch]

...and your condition will not allow you to "qualify" for membership.

And just like that, you demonstrated discrimination. How can he not "qualify" until tested for such qualification? What are the qualifications? Walking on your hands or practicing safe gun handling and targeting ability? If the tests are fair and passed, that's all that should be required. If the tests are purposefully ridiculous in order to keep out less desirables, nail them to the wall - as a group. That "group" elected those in charge and holding everybody accountable might make them take a step back.

 

[Sentryau2]

Wow I honestly did not think joining a gun club/range could be this much trouble. (My family has a nice bit of land so i have no need to join). Ok i get they may want you to shoot in a match depending on what was involved (as long as its not something like run and gun) I dont see why you wouldent be able to compete sitting and or standing? If that is a real problem for you is there nothing else you could do? Maybe set up a fundraiser, print some flyers off or something at all? I cant see why they would not be willing to work with you unless it was just plain and simply discrimination. Even if the OP did irritate him, its still no excuse to bar a potential member from joining simply because you wear your heart on your sleeve.

 

[itsa pain]

And just like that, you demonstrated discrimination. How can he not "qualify" until tested for such qualification? What are the qualifications? Walking on your hands or practicing safe gun handling and targeting ability? If the tests are fair and passed, that's all that should be required. If the tests are purposefully ridiculous in order to keep out less desirables, nail them to the wall - as a group. That "group" elected those in charge and holding everybody accountable might make them take a step back.

in my range there is 2 work weekends where you really have to work. how many allowances do you want to make? does everyone have to stop shooting so he could do yoga every 15 minutes? do I have to change his targets carry him to the bench? this country has bent over backwards for every minority spent trillions on them and it is never enough they still whine and want more

 

[45_auto]

How can he not "qualify" until tested for such qualification? What are the qualifications?

Maybe because the OP posted what the qualifications were and stated that he couldn't meet them?

Membership is $100 plus you must shoot at one of their events. I explained that being a disabled vet with a cane I really can't compete competitively.

 

[lpsharp88]

Maybe because the OP posted what the qualifications were and stated that he couldn't meet them?

The website says shoot OR work 2 events. Even if the OP is disabled, I don't see why they couldn't find a way for him to work the events somehow

 

[ngnrd]

I agree that there is probably some reasonable accommodation that the club could make to allow entry to a prospective member that has a disability. It also sounds like they are willing to make such an accommodation, but the OP got his knickers in a twist before letting the process work itself out. My point is that calling in a government agency to force such an accommodation may not be the best course of action. And the fact remains that the government may, or may not, have the authority to force such action.

 

[45_auto]

The website says shoot OR work 2 events. Even if the OP is disabled, I don't see why they couldn't find a way for him to work the events somehow

Sounds like to me from his (1 old 0311-1) post below that the club president is trying to work with him, but he's on a vendetta towards the other 2 guys he had a squabble with. Some people you just can't help.

The club president called me trying to smooth things over. He said " I CAN'T FIRE THEM BECAUSE THEY ARE VOLUNTEERS" 4-5 TIMES. I finally cooled down and said I would bury the hatchet. He then told me I STILL had to pass the board vote with Dumb and Dumber representing 40% of the vote. I declined.

 

[larryh1108]

I don't see the basis for the lawsuit. If the end result of the suit is to be admitted to the club, the president already told you to reapply and he'll keep an eye on it. They are already opening the door for you to be a member and you are refusing so what is the reason for the lawsuit? Revenge? Punishment? Or do you just wish to join the club?
It sounds like you are filing the suit to be mean-spirited. I seriously doubt these 2 guys will be around on the board much longer anyways so there is nothing to gain by taking them to court.

 

[Uncle Richard]

Ive been to Atlanta CC

I've been to Atlanta to compete in an IDPA match. It was a very well organized event and the leadership was friendly.

I'm looking forward to returning.

just my 2cents.