DIY Action Tuneup

[Dudemeister]

Just curious, how many here have done the "simple" action tuneups to their revolvers?

I for one, have replaced the main spring and trigger return on all my S&W revolvers using the Wilson Combat Custom-Tuneup Kits. I've also replaced the main spring and trigger return springs on my Rugers and Single Actions using Wolff spring kits.

I already have a couple of guns that had been previously slicked up bu a gunsmith, but the stuff I'm talking about is the simple stuff, mainly spring replacements.

After these spring replacements, most of my guns are less than 2lb for SA, and about 4lb in DA.

As an Example. My K38 Masterpiece was 6lb-12oz in DA and 3lb-7oz in SA before the tuneup. After the tuneup the DA is at 3lb-13oz, and SA 1lb-5oz. The numbers are average of 5 trigger pulls using a Layman digital trigger gauge.

 

[shootstraight57]

I've changed the cylinder paw, hammer spring and trigger spring on my Ruger Bisley with Power Custom parts. I have had no issues with them and the wife can pull back the hammer with less effort now!

 

[Rebel Dave]

I do all my own single actions when I get a new one. I also do all the upkeep on them also. The Rugers are a little harder to do, and reassemble.
Dave

 

[labnoti]

I've found the S&W trigger return spring can be lowered by one step in the Wolf Spring range (can't remember if it's 1 pound or 2 pounds per inch lighter), and I still won't over-run the trigger return because I don't go for .16s splits. Other than that, changing springs has just been a recipe for failure. I've tried it in Ruger single actions and in S&W double-actions and I just get light strikes and misfires, or the trigger doesn't return fast enough.

Some smiths polish and stone a lot of surfaces inside the revolver. I've come to believe that's mostly a waste of effort. There is rarely a defect or burr that needs to be smoothed out. Polishing a factory surface that is already smooth to a mirror finish isn't going to have a practical effect. Most of the surfaces I see Youtube smiths polishing aren't even the surfaces where there is any real friction. For example, the backside of the frame along the left side of the return spring slide. That doesn't rub the frame and if it ever touches the frame, it isn't with much force because the return spring centers it away from that surface.

So what does make a difference? The sear surfaces. The biggest difference is their angles. The degree of fineness to which they're stoned has less effect, especially since you can put a little speck of grease on there so they ride on the film. To stone the sear surfaces at the desired angle, you need something like the Power Custom stoning fixture. I don't recommend this for DIY because the tools cost more than a job by a decent smith. I will also say that it's not necessary if you get a revolver with a good trigger from the factory which is entirely practical.

 

[Speedo66]

I've had good luck changing springs in S&W J frame revolvers, installing a smooth surface trigger, and docking the hammer to prevent snagging the inside of a suit jacket on a draw, and also stop shredding the lining.

 

[ontarget]

I put a Wilson Combat spring kit in my Smith & Wesson 642. Didn't really feel much difference. It wasn't a bad trigger to begin with though.

 

[Dudemeister]

I've found the S&W trigger return spring can be lowered by one step in the Wolf Spring range (can't remember if it's 1 pound or 2 pounds per inch lighter), and I still won't over-run the trigger return because I don't go for .16s splits. Other than that, changing springs has just been a recipe for failure. I've tried it in Ruger single actions and in S&W double-actions and I just get light strikes and misfires, or the trigger doesn't return fast enough.

The standard, factory return springs are anywhere from 18-20lb. The Wilson kit comes with 3 of them, 14, 13 and 12lb. I found that the 14lb springs give me the "snappiest" return, yet smooths out trigger pull considerably. Since I don't do rapid fire / competition shooting with my guns, a prefer a smoother trigger pull rather than a hard trigger return.

The Wilson main/hammer spring has a different top profile than the factory spring. The Wilson spring is the same thickness over the whole length of the spring, and is angled near the top. The Factory spring is tapered, so it's thinner at the top than the bottom, and near the top, it curves slightly to engage the hammer. When you pull the hammer back, the Wilson spring flexes over the entire length of the spring, whereas the factory spring flexes over only the top 25%. One of the main problems with the factory spring is that as you loosen up the adjustment screw, it starts to bind toward the end of rearward travel. If you were to look at it with the side plate removed, it looks like it wants to bend "backward".


Anyway, I've already had a set of these on my K38, and my 686+, and never had a light strike. I've been using primarily Winchester primers on my loads, but I also have a few with Remington primers which are know to be harder, yet they went "BANG" every time. The only one I had issues with, was the 686. While it worked 100% in SA, it did have a couple of light strikes in DA mode. A 1/2 turn of the adjustment screw fixed that problem. At the moment, both my K38 and my 686+ have an almost 4lb DA trigger pull

K38:
Trigger Pull:
SA 1lb 5.0oz
DA 3b 15.3oz

686-6+:
Trigger Pull:
SA 1lb 2.5oz
DA 3lb 14.4oz

As for the sear, all 3 of my guns I bought used, and the sear had naturally "smoothed" itself with use. All 3 had nice crisp triggers with no creep, it's just they required a lot more force to pull the trigger. I don't remember the exact numbers on these 2, but the Model 57 has a 9lb-10oz DA and a 3lb-1oz SA trigger. I expect it to have a similar trigger as the the other 2 once I put the springs on it.

So all things considered, I'll take that over the standard action they came with.

 

[JTHunter]

Several years ago, my aging parent was having trouble cocking their SP-101 (.38 Spec.) and even more trouble in DA mode. I took the gun to a smith in a town about 15 miles away (nearest one I could find) to see if he could reduce the poundage. Because of "liability concerns", he couldn't do the work personally. What he did was talk me through it and let me do the work. By "nibbling" off pieces of the spring in the handle, I was able to reduce the trigger pull to a level they could handle, without making it a "hair trigger".

 

[Pat Riot]

I have worked on my Ruger Vaqueros changing springs and smoothing surfaces mostly because a bunch of my fellow cowboy action shooters convinced me it was necessary “to be more competitive”. Hogwash! It’s my theory misery loves company when it comes to the shooting world. Ever change out a spring, have light primer strikes and then have the jasper that talked you into the mod say “Yeah, that happened to me too...now what you need to do is this...”
I had similar experiences with my 1911s years ago when shooting competitively.

Most mods people think they need are usually not needed.

In regards to my Rugers now I do put a lighter hammer spring in because of arthritis in my right wrist and thumb. Other than that, if it shoots good and reliable I leave them alone.

My Smith & Wesson’s get cleaned and lubed. No mods needed.

 

[Stophel]

I'm not big on changing out springs. Everybody wants to change springs now. Everybody now wants ridiculously light trigger pulls.

It used to be the number one thing to do with a S&W was to sand and polish out the inside of the rebound slide. They were usually drilled out pretty roughly. A little polish here, a little polish there maybe, and that would be about all that really needed to be done.

 

[mnrivrat]

I have done a number of guns for lighter and smoother SA/DA pulls. I generally first know what the gun is used for. Carry guns I concentrate more on smoothness rather than attempting to set them up for the lightest pull possible. On SD revolvers I want total reliability with all ammunition brands. I also want to make sure I don't have hammer push off. Personally I don't like SA under 2 pounds or DA under 6 pounds. My choice , nobody else needs to do as I do.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

My CAS Colts have been tuned by a professional gunsmith. I have changed springs in a few other of my Single Actions, mostly with Wolff springs. I have changed springs in a few of my modern DA Smith & Wesson revolvers, but I have way too many to bother with changing out many of them. Have done a little bit of smoothing inside on some of the Smiths too.

I have no problem with the single action trigger pulls on any of my Smiths. I don't shoot double action very much, so I don't care.

For the record I am not comfortable with a single action trigger pull of less than about 2 1/2 pounds.

 

[Oldschool shooter]

I've found the S&W trigger return spring can be lowered by one step in the Wolf Spring range (can't remember if it's 1 pound or 2 pounds per inch lighter), and I still won't over-run the trigger return because I don't go for .16s splits. Other than that, changing springs has just been a recipe for failure. I've tried it in Ruger single actions and in S&W double-actions and I just get light strikes and misfires, or the trigger doesn't return fast enough.

Some smiths polish and stone a lot of surfaces inside the revolver. I've come to believe that's mostly a waste of effort. There is rarely a defect or burr that needs to be smoothed out. Polishing a factory surface that is already smooth to a mirror finish isn't going to have a practical effect. Most of the surfaces I see Youtube smiths polishing aren't even the surfaces where there is any real friction. For example, the backside of the frame along the left side of the return spring slide. That doesn't rub the frame and if it ever touches the frame, it isn't with much force because the return spring centers it away from that surface.

So what does make a difference? The sear surfaces. The biggest difference is their angles. The degree of fineness to which they're stoned has less effect, especially since you can put a little speck of grease on there so they ride on the film. To stone the sear surfaces at the desired angle, you need something like the Power Custom stoning fixture. I don't recommend this for DIY because the tools cost more than a job by a decent smith. I will also say that it's not necessary if you get a revolver with a good trigger from the factory which is entirely practical.

Polishing on many of the older models may or may not make a difference. Most of those older S&W revolvers were polished snd hand fitted back then. Newer models, not so much. While CNC machining of the parts makes them very consistent so as to eliminate hand fitting, polishing those parts will definitely improve the smoothness of the trigger. From the factory, my brand new 638 had a trigger pull of 13 1/2 lbs and it was a bit rough. Just a minor amount of polishing and an Apex spring kit took it down to a 9 lb. Trigger pull and it is smooth as glass.

 

[Sistema1927]

As a matter of fact, I just did an action job on my .327 SP101 today. The factory trigger was atrocious, gritty, rough, and hard.

A little bit of careful polishing and installation of a pair of .007 hammer shims (trigger did not require them, not much gap at all) produced a world of difference. I had already changed out the mainspring and tested it, which got the trigger pull down. Today's work made it much smoother, both SA and DA.

 

[earlthegoat2]

Stronger trigger return springs on DA revolvers are what you need in competition for faster shooting. If the trigger returns slowly then you shoot that much more slowly.

 

[gotboostvr]

I've polished up the guts in a number of Smiths. Only ever changed springs (with factory replacements) when one was worn or had been tinkered with by a previous owner.

More than half of the "needs work" Smith's I've bought just needed a new spring after someone cut it too short.

My Ruger SA's have always been light enough, in one case too light. The issue with most Rugers is they have some creep typically. That's something I can't comfortably fix myself without a sear jig to set the angels.

 

[Sistema1927]

That's something I can't comfortably fix myself without a sear jig to set the angels.

(Sorry, but I just cant help myself)

Yes, if you get the angles wrong, you might just meet the angels.

 

[mcb]

Having shot revolver competitively for years now I have a hard time believing you can have a sub 4 lb double-action trigger and not have ignition issues. I was getting close to 7 lbs with my N-frames and had to use Federal primers or I would get light strikes.

 

[UncleEd]

I find it hard to believe some of the DA trigger weights posted
here after replacing springs or whatever.

I shoot only DA and find too light of springs just open the
doorway to short stroking. Ugh!

One of the problems with the vaunted Python in its factory
trim was that you faced a greater chance of short stroking,
a reason it was usually avoided in competition combat shooting.
The new 2020 Python exhibits the same fault. The Colt triggers
are mushier as a general rule. In one speed shoot video, Jerry
Miculek had to start over because he forgot how mushy the Colt
trigger can be.

I understand some short stroking has occurred with the Ruger
LCR which are touted as having much, much nicer DA triggers
than the usual Smith J frame. In a defensive situation, that
Ruger apparently is more likely to fail.

The Smiths are nearly always issued with the idea of worst case
scenario in good/marginal ammunition and shooting under stress.
They were and mostly are made for police/home defense reliability.

 

[DudeFromSweden]

Having shot revolver competitively for years now I have a hard time believing you can have a sub 4 lb double-action trigger and not have ignition issues. I was getting close to 7 lbs with my N-frames and had to use Federal primers or I would get light strikes.

When I got my .357 back from the gunsmith it had an honest 4 lbs DA trigger that only suffered ignition issues with cheap ammunition where the primers were not always seated properly, but that tuning also included a very much lightened hammer. I also have a hard time imagining a few spring changes resulting in a 4 lbs pull that then would not require properly seated federal primers.

I ended up adjusting the reset quite a bit for a heavier pull. Short stroking is no fun when shooting rapid fire and field shooting competition, even less so if your life depend on it. I would not want to rely on a really light DA trigger without a strong reset for a carry gun. I'm not allowed to carry where I live and my revolvers are competition weapons and range toys so no such concerns. Increasing the pull weight for a snappier return increased my scores though, and I'm not short stroking any more. An added bonus was that the already extremely smooth trigger felt even more smooth with a bit more weight to it.

With my federal primed handloads I can decrease the DA pull weight to ridiculously light if I want to, but I see no benefit in doing that. The gunsmith that did the job let me dry fire his 3 lbs DA Python, that according to him will ignite everything as long as the primer is seated properly below flush.

As for the OPs question, I've installed a lighter rebound spring in my S&W 617. My .357 is a Manurhin MR73 so with that one it's just a matter of turning a screw.

Dudefromsweden

 

[Jim Watson]

After these spring replacements, most of my guns are less than 2lb for SA, and about 4lb in DA.

When I got my .357 back from the gunsmith it had an honest 4 lbs DA trigger that only suffered ignition issues with cheap ammunition where the primers were not always seated properly, but that tuning also included a very much lightened hammer. I also have a hard time imagining a few spring changes resulting in a 4 lbs pull that then would not require properly seated federal primers.

Having shot revolver competitively for years now I have a hard time believing you can have a sub 4 lb double-action trigger and not have ignition issues. I was getting close to 7 lbs

Me, too. I look in on the revolvers at Benos every once in a while. The ICORE and USPSA revolver shooters would be dancing with joy at a 4 lb double action. If by "spring engineering" and no gunsmithing and hammer replacement, they would go wild.
I think I'll get a Wilson spring set and put it in an existing gun to see what happens. I have a very early Model 19 with unusually tough DA that will be a good testbed.

One of the problems with the vaunted Python in its factory
trim was that you faced a greater chance of short stroking,

This was not a problem for me, but then a Python was my first venture into DA shooting. Maybe if I tried real hard after shooting Smiths for a while.

 

[Dudemeister]

Well, all this got me second guessing myself, so I once again tested the 2 guns which I had previously taken to the range were functioning just fine, and once again, I averaged
K38: SA 1lb 6.5oz, DA 4lb 1.4oz. The 686 was SA 2lb 1.2oz, DA 3lb 12.1oz.

So then I thought, maybe I'm not doing this right, so I looked at a few videos on line, and also read the manual. While the videos on line are not really indicative, the manual states "A slow, steady pull is best.". My previous method of doing this was basically to pull the trigger in one continuous move of approximately 1/2 second or so. That's sort of in line with someone doing a 1 round/second drill.

When I did the same test, but this time doing a slow pull 1.5 ~2 sec, the numbers almost doubled. The SA went to 2lb 4oz and the DA went to 6lb 2.6oz on the 686, and the K38 went to 6lb 5.4oz on DA, and 2lb 5oz in SA mode.

So the moral of the story, is that the measured trigger pull, at least as determined by the trigger gauge, is dependent on how fast you pull the trigger.

Can someone with a trigger gauge verify this (slower pull higher numbers) to see if they see similar results?

 

[UncleEd]

Dudemeister, in DA do your triggers after firing return with
solid, snappy authority when you ease off the pressure
to let them go forward? How about if you take your finger
off the trigger after firing? Same solid, snappy return?
This can be done dry firing.

 

[DudeFromSweden]

Well, since a revolver trigger is a long lever, the position of the pull gauge can give greatly differing readings depending on where on the trigger it's located. Further from the fulcrum equals longer travel with less force needed, closer to the fulcrum equal less distance traveled but requiring greater force.

Also if I remember correctly, "guy-guessing" a bit, friction can decrease with greater speed. Someone with a better education can hopefully correct me on this though, and probably give Dudemeister a more satisfactory explanation.

Dudefromsweden

 

[Dudemeister]

Dudemeister, in DA do your triggers after firing return with
solid, snappy authority when you ease off the pressure
to let them go forward? How about if you take your finger
off the trigger after firing? Same solid, snappy return?
This can be done dry firing.

It returns pretty quick as far as I'm concerned. Remember, I replaced the factory 18lb spring with a 14lb spring, nothing overly dramatic.

But since there's no substitute for seeing it yourself, I made a little video showing the trigger rebound, so you tell me.



@DudeFromSweden

When I did the measurements, I put the trigger gauge roller right in the middle of the trigger. I know I could have gotten lower numbers by simply pushing on the very end of the trigger, but that's not how I shoot it, I put my fingertip in the middle of the trigger so that's where I placed the gauge.

"friction can decrease with greater speed". Not exactly. The faster something moves, the higher the friction. At least as far as objects moving through air (like an asteroid burning up in the atmosphere), but in this case, I don't think the trigger and the internal parts move fast enough to make a difference.