Do class 3 licenses draw extra 'scrutiny' from law enforcement/ATF?

[Jim K]

One thing that needs to be clarified. There is no such thing as a "Class 3 license". There is a Class 3 Special Occupational Tax, paid by a licensed (FFL) dealer or manufacturer to deal in NFA firearms. NO federal license is required to own NFA firearms, only BATFE approval of the transfer and payment of the transfer tax.

As to the legal possession of NFA firearms attracting attention, in most cases, local LE won't even know about it; BATFE does not tell them who has registered guns in their area unless there is a criminal investigation. The CLEO can use the signoff to keep a record, which is one of the reasons that provision may be eliminated. If there is local or state registration, then of course they might know, but in some states that have state registration, not even local LE can get access to the records, at least officially, unless there is a criminal investigation.

IMHO, an LE that would make such a statement needs to lose his badge and most of all, his gun. He is just the kind of cop who goes around hoping for an excuse to shoot people.

Jim

 

[GoingQuiet]

One thing that needs to be clarified. There is no such thing as a "Class 3 license". There is a Class 3 Special Occupational Tax, paid by a licensed (FFL) dealer or manufacturer to deal in NFA firearms. NO federal license is required to own NFA firearms, only BATFE approval of the transfer and payment of the transfer tax.

As to the legal possession of NFA firearms attracting attention, in most cases, local LE won't even know about it; BATFE does not tell them who has registered guns in their area unless there is a criminal investigation. The CLEO can use the signoff to keep a record, which is one of the reasons that provision may be eliminated. If there is local or state registration, then of course they might know, but in some states that have state registration, not even local LE can get access to the records, at least officially, unless there is a criminal investigation.

IMHO, an LE that would make such a statement needs to lose his badge and most of all, his gun. He is just the kind of cop who goes around hoping for an excuse to shoot people.

Jim

I think your statement is overblown.

To say that someone is a cop going around hoping for an excuse to shoot people based on ignorance is extreme and overbroad.

Hanlons razor - Don't attribute to malice that which you can attribute to stupidity.

 

[Walther P99]

Regardless of whether NFA draws extra scrutiny or not, I still want one..

 

[crazy-mp]

Regardless of whether NFA draws extra scrutiny or not, I still want one..

Spoken like a true American!

 

[Lawdawg45]

No no no no. Did I mention no?

Seriously, I have owned fully automatic weapons for many years, pre-1968 amnesty in a few cases. I've had LEO out to my place several times for break-ins and other issues, and never did they even know I owned these beautiful, fun weapons. Silly to think they would know everyone who might own a machine gun, silencer, SBS or SBR. DD maybe, especially if it were wheeled and sitting in the front yard? Might cause a question about that.

Correct. Although some states link your CCW permit with BMV records, most states do not (including Indiana), so other than previous arrest/contact information or intel from a confidential informant, we have no idea, but the well trained Officer will assume every house has a weapon. Information with the Fed's or ATF is a totally different ballgame.

LD

 

[AK103K]

but the well trained Officer will assume every house has a weapon

Every house he goes to, does.

 

[Ian]

My local cops have no idea that I have a machine gun. It's owned by a trust, so I didn't have to get any local LEO signature, and the info stays with the feds.

 

[PTK]

Here's my direct and recent experience - middle of September, I think it was, there was a SERIOUS injury in my home. It even involved a firearm. I called 911, told dispatch to get EMT and sheriff here (outside of city limits, so the local PD doesn't come out here) and continued treating the injured party while waiting.

The first deputy came up to the house, knocked and called out my name and the name of the injured, asking where we were, if we were okay, etc.

Second deputy was outside, in the sheriff's vehicle (which was still on).

Once deputy #1 heard me answer and saw me heading for the door, he waved to his partner who exited the vehicle and came up to join him. I opened the door and let them both in. They saw what had happened, saw how it had happened, and radioed to get EMTs here - they were waiting down the street just in case, which seems like a pretty good idea when someone calls in a GSW.

Anyway, a few minutes into this I realized that I hadn't put a cover shirt on or removed my carry gun from the holster. I mentioned it to the deputies, who looked at each other. Deputy #2 turned back to me and she simply said "so?"

For what it's worth, I own NFA items. Not a huge collection, but plenty.

Some are through trusts, but some are individually owned.

So, let's recap...

They knew I had NFA items inside my residence
They were called in for a GSW inside my residence
There was no "no knock" or SWAT raid
At no point were the deputies anything but entirely friendly and helpful


For what it may be worth, this happened in Montana. That may be part of the equation.

 

[LiquidTension]

I've served a metric pantload of warrants and there were only two times that the ATF was involved for any reason:

1) Multi-jurisdictional gang unit high risk warrant service where they came along.
2) We found an SBS in a criminal's residence one time.

 

[zignal_zero]

Not to the extent that LEO suggested, but YES, knowing what I do about LE I do believe if you go the individual route the sheriff will record the fact he signed off on your form 4 and that info will be available to any unit responding to a call for service at you home. Now how having that information changes their response depends on a lot of factors, but If a sheriff signed you form4, go ahead and assume every deputy who runs your name knows about it.

 

[gyvel]

IF they find you in possession of a machine gun or other Title II regulated item, then they can determine whether you possess it legally, by looking at your stamped Form 4 (or Form 1) and verifying with the BATFE if they feel the need. (That's problematic, though. The Form, with the stamp, in your hands IS your proof).

As AK103K pointed out, your Form 4 is a Federal tax form, and doesn't have to be shown to anyone except an employee of the IRS, to wit: an ATF agent.

Now, having said that, I don't think it's in anyone's best interest to try this kind of bravado with a cop in your home investigating something, even though you are well within your legal rights to do so.

Other than that, you don't go on any special "list" because you own NFA weapons other than, say, by word of mouth. At least that's the case where I live because most of the local cops like to shoot FA weapons.

 

[hso]

The POINT is that
1) Owning said items puts you on lists that make it more likely that you will be talked to and
2) IF they come and talk to you, you might expect more of an armed response than otherwise...

No, you're not listening to the NFA owners here who are telling you that such a myth is false. Doesn't happen.

Apply a little logic. Machine gun owners undergo a background check in addition to approval by their local LE authority. They're certified good guys. Their hobby is expensive so they're also usually successful business and professional people who in addition to having passed a background check on at least one occasion are also well connected in the community. Not exactly the folks likely to get a visit from the black suited guys fast roping from a stealth helicopter regardless of how much tin foil eaten as a child by the guy who's infected you with this goofy myth.

So, NO, by both logic and the actual experience of the people who actually own then.

 

[Prosser]

I have a friend currently being treated for fatal cancer. He has a number of full auto weapons, among other things.

He was a bomb tech/SWAT Sniper/Firearms instructor/purchaser for local LEO and detective. Pretty much anything involving firearms, they call him. Not to mention a Col. in the National Guard.

He is one of the good guys. It's sad he's dieing. That does bring up how can the
Class 3 weapons be transfered to his heirs in this wonderful state of California?

My understanding is to obtain the weapons you have to pass the same requirements as someone who applies for a CCW, which are impossible to get here, so then what happens to the guns?

 

[GoingQuiet]

I have a friend currently being treated for fatal cancer. He has a number of full auto weapons, among other things.

He was a bomb tech/SWAT Sniper/Firearms instructor/purchaser for local LEO and detective. Pretty much anything involving firearms, they call him. Not to mention a Col. in the National Guard.

He is one of the good guys. It's sad he's dieing. That does bring up how can the
Class 3 weapons be transfered to his heirs in this wonderful state of California?

My understanding is to obtain the weapons you have to pass the same requirements as someone who applies for a CCW, which are impossible to get here, so then what happens to the guns?

Again - Class 3 is a TAX BRACKET not a special category of firearm.

If his heirs are in California, there is no way they can be transferred unless they follow CA state law and get a license that they can't get.

 

[Quiet]

He is one of the good guys. It's sad he's dieing. That does bring up how can the
Class 3 weapons be transfered to his heirs in this wonderful state of California?

BATFE allows a person to store a Title 2 firearm in another state, if the state they reside in does not allow the ownership/possession of Title 2 firearms.

If the Title 2 firearms are being bequested to a resident of CA, then standard transfer procedure would occur with the stipulation that the Title 2 firearm is being stored in another state. When stored in another state, it must be stored in such a way that only the owner has access to it (examples... in a safety deposit box or in a safe in which the owner retains possession of the key/combo & no one else has a key/combo to the safe).

Ownership/possession of certain Title 2 firearms (DD, MG, SBR, SBS) in CA requires a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit.
Currently, the only ways to get a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit is by a FFL/SOT for the purpose of making/transfering to Gov/Mil/LE agencies or by a prop master for use in the entertainment industry.

Ownership/possession of an AOW does not require a CA DOJ BOF Dangerous Weapons Permit.

Bottom line...
If the Title 2 firearms are a DD/MG/NS/SBR/SBS, then they need to be stored outside of CA.
If the Title 2 firearms are an AOW (except for pen guns), then they can be transfered to a CA resident via FFL/SOT dealer with BATFE approval (Form 5).

 

[Prosser]

Thanks. The out of state option was not considered. I suspect he'll give them to some of his SWAT buddies anyway.

 

[evan price]

What is this "Class Three License" of which you are speaking?

Most Class Three trucks have a GVWR between 10,001 pounds and 14,000 pounds- which is the size which is the 1-ton or "super duty" type pickups, and are not required to have a CDL to operate...

Did you perhaps mean a Class Three SOT paid by an FFL? In which case, yes, a Class Three SOT holder has everything on a list or a bound book. But that's true for any of the FFL classes.

I perosnally think this entire post is troll-bait by the antis.. "Yes, if you peons dare to buy anything from the Land of Evil Bad Things the SWAT team will come and kill you!"


@ PTK: That chopped Mosin pistol looks extra painful to the shooter even just sitting there.

 

[Bubbles]

I have a friend currently being treated for fatal cancer. He has a number of full auto weapons, among other things.

He was a bomb tech/SWAT Sniper/Firearms instructor/purchaser for local LEO and detective. Pretty much anything involving firearms, they call him. Not to mention a Col. in the National Guard.

He is one of the good guys. It's sad he's dieing. That does bring up how can the Class 3 weapons be transfered to his heirs in this wonderful state of California?

It sounds like the guy is an FFL/SOT, which means he'd better 1) already know the answer to this question and 2) have made provisions for anything in his inventory to be legally transferred when he does pass away. Ideally he's left explicit instructions for his executor (or at least a referral to an FFL/SOT who can guide him through the process), especially for any pre- or post-samples so they don't end up being destroyed.

Since it's business inventory it's not as clean/easy as just willing everything to his heirs. Being in California they couldn't legally take posession of most of the inventory anyway.

 

[hso]

Setting up a trust with family as members is the solution.

 

[AK103K]

It would seem so. My only concern would be, do different states have different rules for the trusts? The ATF may accept them, but could the state be an issue?

Ive also recently been hearing the ATF isnt real happy with the trust thing, and is thinking about doing away with the LEO sign off as a trade off. Anyone else heard anymore on that?

 

[Carl N. Brown]

So the short form is you can buy NFA firearms from a FFL dealer who is a Class 3 SOT. But they are NFA firearms. Not Class 3 firearms.

 

[zignal_zero]

actually i believe they are called "Title II Firearms". NFA is (one of) the law(s) that governs them. so..... you could say "NFA Restricted Firearms" which has YES become "NFA Guns" i consider it to be kind of gun slang, like scattergun, hogleg, snubbie, choppa, etc.

ETA - i prefer to call them Title II Firearms, but i also call an AK a Kalashnikov

 

[Prosser]

Since the gentleman in question is an attorney, I suspect he has this covered.
Still, as cancer eats at you, your mental perspective and abilities diminish.

That's my current concern.
He's already setup a trust, but, I don't know what he's doing with the firearms.

 

[husbandofaromanian]

When I bought my first silencer 7 years ago, I was also afraid of being questioned whenever a shooting crime happened. However, I own two silencers now, and the only grief I get is at the local state shooting range when they are afraid my firearms are not legal (a Contender Pistol with a silencer looks pretty scary).
Even though I cannot afford one, you fa guys can have them. I've seen them shot a knob creek and their accuracy is HORRIBLE.

 

[AK103K]

Even though I cannot afford one, you fa guys can have them. I've seen them shot a knob creek and their accuracy is HORRIBLE.

Thats not the guns fault.