Do Glocks jam for anyone else?

[dom1104]

Are you guys referring to videos like this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gu8Mv4h1rCc

I just tried this last night with my CZ 75 P01, couldnt make it jam in 100 rounds.

/yay.

 

[GLOOB]

No. I've never see that type of hold. It's hard to see exactly what's going on cuz his off hand is covering the action.

But afterwards, the guy says "will anyone, ever, fire a gun like that in SD? No. That's not something we have to worry about." For whatever that's worth.

It's interesting to see that his GLOCK failed only to eject the last cartridge in the mag, despite he was trying his best. I wonder if he needs more practice at limpwristing, so he can do it as good as the experts.

 

[Manco]

No. I've never see that type of hold. It's hard to see exactly what's going on cuz his off hand is covering the action.

But afterwards, the guy says "will anyone, ever, fire a gun like that in SD? No. That's not something we have to worry about." For whatever that's worth.

He probably did the video as a reaction to those who are fanatical about the Glock (or any other pistol), and can apparently find no faults with it--even minor and inconsequential--when in reality no gun is perfect in every way. Take for example the torture tests that people put Glocks through. The results have been impressive, but not everybody needs for their pistol to survive so many indignities--most are good enough in this regard and may be preferred for other reasons. On the other hand, if one feels that they MUST have a pistol that tough, then go ahead and buy a Glock.

I guess the point is that the converse is just as valid. Glocks are uniquely inferior in terms of tolerance to limp-wristing and some other types of mishandling, such as riding the slide. These are not myths--they are repeatable and therefore true. That said, although they're not perfect after all, Glocks are generally good enough in these respects to merit consideration for purchase. On the other hand, if one feels that they MUST have a pistol that can function reliably while being limp-wristed or otherwise mishandled (because of injury or whatever), then they should NOT buy a Glock.

Ultimately the real point is discouraging overly biased, unbalanced views of guns in general. Glocks might get picked on more frequently because they are so respected, if grudgingly by some, but a lot of it has to do with people being defensive about them, too. Part of it is also because of having an interest in myth-busting, and in this case the only myth, if anybody actually ever believed it, is that Glocks are perfect. Well, they're not, although they still are great guns--one of the most seminal, pragmatic designs ever conceived, in my opinion. But they do have some minor weaknesses that people should know about in order to be well informed.

It's interesting to see that his GLOCK failed only to eject the last cartridge in the mag, despite he was trying his best. I wonder if he needs more practice at limpwristing, so he can do it as good as the experts.

I've seen at least one person do it several times without trying--she was a beginner and not an expert at anything related to firearms. That's why I looked into the issue in the first place, otherwise I might have never known unless I happened to stumble into a discussion like this one. For me, Glocks have always shot fine--I've never had a malfunction that I did not deliberately induce, although in all fairness there are other pistols in which I've never been able to induce malfunctions through simulated clumsy handling. In the end, all of this doesn't matter much to me (if I wanted a 10mm pistol, for example, in all likelihood I'd buy a Glock 20 because I like Glocks--they fit MY hand pretty well, at least), but it might matter a lot to somebody else. And in any event, the last thing I'd want to see is truth dismissed as myth while myth is allowed to persist.

 

[REAPER4206969]

Glocks are uniquely inferior in terms of tolerance to limp-wristing and some other types of mishandling, such as riding the slide. These are not myths--they are repeatable and therefore true. That said, although they're not perfect after all, Glocks are generally good enough in these respects to merit consideration for purchase.

The common misconception in this thread is that Glock's susceptibility to limpwristing is somehow a Glock design fault. The Glock is sensitive to improper hold because of its light weight. There is no way to change this than to make it heavier. Glock's class leading weight is far more important than being able to function while being used improperly, and borderline unsafely. This is also the reason pocket pistol like the P-3AT and LCP are considered "unreliable."

 

[glove]

No never a jam.

 

[GLOOB]

Hmm. This just keeps going in circles. No, it's not just the light weight. It's proven that the 9mm GLOCKs can be limp-wristed even with at least a half full mag of ammo weighing them down. Apparently, an XD with a totally empty mag will be difficult to induce this malfunction.

I agree that the GLOCKS can be unintentionally limp-wristed by people of small stature. I agree this can be a concern in an SD situation for people that fall into this category.

It's well known that Glock tested his own prototypes during development. Perhaps he would have designed things differently if he had added his wife into his test group.

I've seen at least one person do it several times without trying--she was a beginner and not an expert at anything related to firearms

I've seen this, too. But an additional factor was that her gun was brand spanking new. After the first day, these malfunctions never recurred. I am inclined to think that a new gun and stiff, new mag springs may contribute to the problem.

 

[glove]

No never a jam. G-19 G-26

 

[Mad Magyar]

Sure they do....I borrowed my instructor's G-17 to qualify for the 9mm back when you qualified for each caliber on your NM CC license.
Anyway, it jammed almost every other round. The instructor sheepishly mentioned that they were his reloads...Oh well, it happens to all pistols..

 

[REAPER4206969]

No, it's not just the light weight.

Yes, it is.

It's proven that the 9mm GLOCKs can be limp-wristed even with at least a half full mag of ammo weighing them down. Apparently, an XD with a totally empty mag will be difficult to induce this malfunction.

A Glock 19 with a half loaded mag is still lighter than an empty XD.

WEIGHT
595 g / 20.99 oz.
LOADED (~)
850 g / 29.98 oz

The XD service weighs 28 oz. W/O magazine.

Perhaps he would have designed things differently

The Glock action design is no different than the overwhelming majority of modern auto-loading pistols. It is a modified link-less Browning tilting barrel locked breech recoil operated action.

 

[Mediocrity]

I've never had a problem with any of my Glocks. My wife has had problems with the G19 though. fwiw

 

[Manco]

A Glock 19 with a half loaded mag is still lighter than an empty XD.

WEIGHT
595 g / 20.99 oz.
LOADED (~)
850 g / 29.98 oz

The XD service weighs 28 oz. W/O magazine.

But a fully-loaded Glock 17 at 32 oz is also far more susceptible to limp-wristing than a lightly-loaded M&P9, which has an empty weight of 24 oz and should be lighter overall when loaded with just a couple of rounds. In fact, I've never gotten the latter to malfunction due to deliberate limp-wristing, and I've tried harder than I've had to with Glocks (any harder and I fear that I might drop the gun! ).

The Glock action design is no different than the overwhelming majority of modern auto-loading pistols. It is a modified link-less Browning tilting barrel locked breech recoil operated action.

Yet some of these guns are still more reliable than others, with Glock being among the most reliable, as long as you don't limp-wrist them or ride their slides, anyway.

And let me add that even if it were just about weight (it isn't, but let's just say hypothetically), then it would still be a tradeoff that is part of the overall design of the gun.

 

[REAPER4206969]

But a fully-loaded Glock 17 at 32 oz is also far more susceptible to limp-wristing than a lightly-loaded M&P9,

That is only taking into account frame weight. Slide weight is also an important factor (the lighter slide is the cause of the FTF/FTRTB part of limpwristing.)

 

[REAPER4206969]

SA XD9 and Ruger SR9 limpwrist failure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2ifek9CXNE&feature=related

 

[Manco]

That is only taking into account frame weight.

No, it takes into account the total system weight of each pistol plus ammo.

Slide weight is also an important factor (the lighter slide is the cause of the FTF/FTRTB part of limpwristing.)

I had surmised the very same thing earlier in this thread. As a matter of fact, my last couple of posts were really just repeating things that I had already covered earlier. And like I already said, ultimately weight and its distribution are both parts of a pistol's design. If they negatively impact how Glocks function under certain conditions, then that's just how things are. Why should it matter whether the cause is something like this or something mechanical? It neither makes a difference to me nor the observed behavior. It's a tradeoff for lighter weight, then, although the M&P does not make the tradeoff and is still nearly as light (I'm not saying that it's necessarily better overall--M&Ps have their own issues, as well).

SA XD9 and Ruger SR9 limpwrist failure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2ifek9CXNE&feature=related

I'm not sure why those guns both kept jamming, but the shooter was not limp-wristing them, despite the claim in the title. I suspect either maintenance or ammo issues (or sometimes guns just jam and he was extremely unlucky).

 

[REAPER4206969]

I'm not sure why those guns both kept jamming, but the shooter was not limp-wristing them,

That was text book limpwrist induced failures. He was double-fist-gangsta-holdin' them for christ sake!

I suspect either maintenance or ammo issues (or sometimes guns just jam and he was extremely unlucky).

Two different guns, fired at the same time by the same shooter? Really?

 

[dom1104]

huh, I am not sure I care WHY a limp wrist jam is happening, I want a gun it doesnt happen to.

Weight or not. slide weight or not, etc etc etc etc.

Seriously, I want my gun to work no matter what I do wrong.

My wife is 100 lbs, with very thin hands, and horrible shooting skills. I want my gun to work in her hands, just as much as mine.

If she dies in a home invasion, I am not sure "She limp wristed my glock" or "It must be the low weight causing jams" is going to cut it.

We are talking life or death here.

Fortunatly my gun has never failed to work in her hands, and is 28 oz I believe.

 

[REAPER4206969]

Seriously, I want my gun to work no matter what I do wrong.

That is being unreasonable. Do you expect that of other machines?

We are talking life or death here.

Yes we are. One should become proficient with their weapons. If your wife can not even manage to hold the pistol properly, do you really expect her to prevail in a fight?

 

[Mad Magyar]

Seriously, I want my gun to work no matter what I do wrong.

That's a reasonable request...There are plenty out there that will not fail due to a "gingerly" hold. I've found that pistols that fail due to not having a "white knuckler" grip have other variables and intangibles at work causing the problem....

 

[dom1104]

That is being unreasonable. Do you expect that of other machines?

Pretty much yeah. I expect my car to go forward if I push the pedal down, wether I do it with my foot, a toe, the other foot, etc. I dont need perfect form to drive a car.

Yes we are. One should become proficient with their weapons. If your wife can not even manage to hold the pistol properly, do you really expect her to prevail in a fight?

Of course thats the case re: training. However its not "her weapon". If she grabs my gun out of the drawer, I want my gun to be able to operate under less than ideal operator conditions. Even tho she hasnt trained for it, or has any interest in it at all really. Thats not.. unreasonable. I expect her to have a fighting chance, its up to HER to decide wether she wants to train or not.

Luckily, I havent be able to make my gun malfuction from a limp wrist, and even with her completly untrained and terrible form, it fires and she can hit a man sized target from 3 yards or so reliably.

Thats all she is interested in, and I am glad MY equipment can supply that.

I do not think its unreasonable to require a gun to fire and feed with every press of the trigger, no matter the position or grip. Its 2010, we should be able to make a gun that will do that.

So far, my CZ will. If it didnt, I would sell it. Thats all I am sayin. I like my equipment to be "reliable and accurate" as defined by "How reliable is it in human hands, in adverse and not ideal situations" and "How accurate is it for me, in my hands, in adverse situations" not "Can I bury it" and "How accurate is it in a vise".

Thats just how I roll when I select hardware.

My nail gun fires and feeds no matter how I hold it, it feeds from a magazine of sorts, I just dont see why a gun shouldnt either.

 

[Manco]

That was text book limpwrist induced failures. He was double-fist-gangsta-holdin' them for christ sake!

But he still visibly held them firmly enough, and at least one of the guns malfunctioned while he was holding it upright, making this easy to see. I don't see the guns flying back like I've seen in other cases of limp-wrist-induced failures, and I've had to try a lot harder than that to get most guns to fail, including Glocks.

If I went a bit too far in saying that such vulnerability to limp-wristing was "uniquely" a Glock issue, then I'll gladly retract that aspect of what I said, as I want to find the truth and be fair, period. That said, if what we see in the video you linked is "textbook" limp-wristing that can induce failure in any number of semiautomatic pistols, then I would strongly reconsider the suitability of semiautos for self-defense or police work in general.

I just don't see in the video why those pistols would both fail like that, particularly the XD which I've tested myself and found to be a very robust, reliable weapon. I've shot my M&P every which way, even upside-down with a light hold, but I can't get it to fail--it might jam someday due to some random issue, but not just because I didn't hold it with two hands (I regularly practice one-handed shooting) and completely steady. If it ever failed as easily as we see in the video, as well as repeatedly under such conditions, then I would find out what's wrong with it and get it fixed. And if that's just how semiautos are, hypothetically speaking, then I would not use them for self-defense and would strongly advise others to switch to revolvers, but it just hasn't been my experience.

Two different guns, fired at the same time by the same shooter? Really?

Well, I don't see any limp-wristing--stupid holds, yes, but nothing that should induce a malfunction. My sister has shot my M&P "gangsta style" holding it over her head because she thinks it looks cool , and her arm went flying back, but there were no malfunctions. For all I know, the owner(s) of the guns in the video switched to aftermarket springs or made some other modifications that made the guns less reliable. I wouldn't be so sure of what I've been saying about Glocks if I hadn't done some of my own testing on stock guns.

 

[SwampWolf]

Quote:
There are way too many possible situations in self-defense scenarios when it is impossible to grasp a pistol with the firmest of holds

...such as? I'm trying to imagine "way too many" and can only come up with a few scenarios, all of which belong in a Rambo movie.

Rambo? Rambo never had his knife jam due to acquiring less than a perfect grip. He's Rambo, after all. I'm not Rambo. I can't count on having the purchase of my grip on a pistol being used to save my life not being adversely affected by moisture from blood, sweat or rain; I can't assume that my grip won't be compromised by a less than perfect draw under the stress of the moment from wherever my pistol is being carried and I certainly can't count on my weak hand being as firm as my strong hand in the event my strong hand has been disabled for whatever reason. Movies don't account for "limp-wristing"; real life maybe does.

As I mentioned in my earlier post: I don't want any part of a pistol that has a reputation for being susceptible to failing due to limp-wristing for use in self-defense scenarios. My sentiments on this matter are the same as dom1104's:

huh, I am not sure I care WHY a limp wrist jam is happening, I want a gun it doesnt happen to.

Weight or not. slide weight or not, etc etc etc etc.

Seriously, I want my gun to work no matter what I do wrong.

 

[meytind]

I just put 100 rounds of Remington .45 hollowpoints through a friend's older model Glock 21 without so much as a hiccup. While I don't have too much experience with Glocks, the three I have shot (19, 22, 21) have been 100% good.

 

[conhntr]

I have to report my first malfunction. Glock 23 made it ~5000 and last time at the range I had a mag of random leftover ammo. Had mostly umc a few federal 180 grhp and one lone wolf fmj about 2nd to last. For some reason the last umc failed to eject and the wolf made it about half way in. Easy to clear but at that point I was really suprised. Still a good ratio

 

[herkyguy]

Glock 23. 3000+ rounds. several times the slide has locked back with rounds still remaining. I attribute this to my thumb bumping the slide lock. I have had 1 FTF where the round jammed. Re-racked with no more problems. Lastly, about a week ago, i had my first stovepipe. I had 1 round left so i fed it manually and shot the gun without a magazine. I attribute the stovepipe to the magazine not being in place and speeding up the slide on its return trip home. I love glocks.

 

[ChCx2744]

I replied to this thread already, but I have an update: Went to the range today with the G26 and got TWO (2) jams (FTEs). Both instances were with the same ammo (Double Tap 147 grain bonded defense JHP +P). The round went off fine and didn't squib, but the spent casing didnt eject and the next round got caught. I had to lock the slide back, remove the mag and let the spent casing fall out. Winchester Ranger T-Series 124 grain JHP +P and Federal Champion 115 grain FMJ both ran through the gun like warmmm butterrrrr, NO JAMS. I do not limp wrist, nor do I have any abnormal grip/trigger pull/stance issues. I'm gonna try to stay away from the 147 grain hollow point loads...Seems like the bullet itself is a bit bulky and the non-rounded tip doesn't help feeding, either.