"Do "Gun-Free" Zones Encourage School Shootings?"

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cnorman18

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Here's a great column by Larry Elder in Human Events:

Do "Gun-Free" Zones Encourage School Shootings?
by Larry Elder
Posted: 10/18/2007

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=22911

Here are a few excerpts:

"Do shooters consider schools "gun-free zones"? Do they consider it unlikely that any authority figure -- whether teachers or, in some cases, security guards -- poses an armed threat? But in some school shooting cases, guns helped to end shooting sprees and minimize loss of life and injury."

"Israel gets it. Since the 1970s, on school campuses in Israel, policy requires teachers and parent aides to arm themselves with semi-automatic weapons. The result? School shootings have plummeted to zero."

There's much more. Enjoy.
 
Do "Gun-Free" Zones Encourage School Shootings

Absolutely. Victim Dis-armament zones are exactly that. Old saw about 'Shooting Fish in a Barrel'.

IIRC, most "School Shooters" end up shooting themselves when The Constabularly closes in on them.

Pearl, MS shooting incident comes to mind. Shooting stopped when Principal retrieved his own handgun from his car. Shooter immediately surrendered when confronted by said Principal.

Cleveland, OH shooter Asa Coon shot himself BEFORE Police arrived, IIRC.
 
I doubt they have any real effect a school shooter is probably fairly nuts
but I can't see them being put off .
"i'm going to wipe out my school and go out in a blaze of glory . damm schools gun free I'll just sulk and refuse to tidy my bedroom instead:uhoh:"
 
I think that "victim disarmament zones" (aka gun free zones) are tempting targets for criminals, especially violent ones. Think about it, most every potential victim is law abiding, and therefore disarmed; if you are the badguy and have a gun you WILL have control for at least the amount of time that it takes police to respond.





Scary
 
Think of a sled going down a slope without a driver. If it's going to go, it's going to go, but when it does, it will follow the most convenient path. The same is true about people who go bonkers. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure that every mass shooting that occurred in the US over the past 20 years has happened in a gun free zone. The gun control argument is a pretty nonsensical power struggle. Both sides know the truth. The exchange of points like the subject thread, along with the "guns kill people" nonsense are nothing more then propaganda to support each sides view. If you are a follower of law and order, then you have to respect the 2nd amendment and acknowledge it's purpose. Apparently, many of the liberals are waking up to this now that they are seeing what the government can and inevitably will do now that they have the power. Apart from the obvious purpose of the peoples power to defend themselves from tyrants within, the positive, negative and neutral affects of gun ownership among the common people are clear at face value and easy to understand once you toss all the propaganda aside.
 
Of course they do.

To dispute this is to ignore the facts.

Generally speaking, one does not find many instances of such mayhem at a military installation or a police station or anywhere else that armed people abound.

Typically, school or office shootings are perpetrated by disaffected, unstable cowards bent upon making someone pay for their perceived slights or misfortune. The only way for them to succeed is to not meet any resistance. Resistance = failure and that's not the mission profile, they need success, so they select fertile grounds.

My opinion is that they get these murder/suicides backward, they should start with themselves.
 
To dispute this is to ignore the facts.

To state this is to ignore other variables. Snapping Twig, correlation still does not equal causation. Also, Military installations have some of the tightest instances of "gun-free zones" one can find.

If gun-free zones encourages this so much, why don't we see more shootings at other gun-free zones, such as national parks, convents, pre-schools, churches, and state fairs? Certainly those grounds are just as fertile as schools and offices if you are just looking to make people pay.

Perhaps there is something more to it...
 
If gun-free zones encourages this so much, why don't we see more shootings at other gun-free zones, such as national parks, convents, pre-schools, churches, and state fairs? Certainly those grounds are just as fertile as schools and offices if you are just looking to make people pay.

Perhaps there is something more to it...

AAhhh!!! FINELY...Some reason!!
 
I don't think they encourage school shootings, but it leaves everyone helpless when some nut decides to start shooting.
 
If gun-free zones encourages this so much, why don't we see more shootings at other gun-free zones, such as national parks, convents, pre-schools, churches, and state fairs? Certainly those grounds are just as fertile as schools and offices if you are just looking to make people pay.

Perhaps there is something more to it...
Like Trolley Square Mall in Utah?
 
IMHO, no. Do they make it easier? Yes. Do they force victums to be victums? Yes.

Would school shooting stop if guns were allowed? No.

As much as I disagree with less guns make schools less likely to be attacked, I also disagree with more guns make the school less likely to be attacked. I think school shootings have less to do with 'no guns', as they have to do with 'lots of people in a confined area' or 'thats where the girl that broke my heart goes'. Not to mention the media coverage you will recieve. Schools are a symbolic target, not one made because of a lack of guns.

And yes, it works for Israelis. However, Israelis are worried about a different threat. In America, we are worried about random acts of violence, not acts of terrorism. In terrorism, yes, I believe an armed school is going to be a less likely target. When the idea is to scare as many people as possible, going after an armed target is not going to be as effective as a less armed target, as the damage is likely going to be much lower. When your goal is to take out anger, as it seems most school shootings are for, the object is to destory what made you angry. Hence, the acts are still going to take place, just less people are going to be hurt.
 
?

"If gun-free zones encourages this so much, why don't we see more shootings at other gun-free zones, such as national parks, convents, pre-schools, churches, and state fairs? Certainly those grounds are just as fertile as schools and offices if you are just looking to make people pay.

"Perhaps there is something more to it.."

"AAhhh!!! FINEly...Some reason!!"

Convents, churches and State Fairs are not gun-free zones, at least not in Texas. National parks are not good places to find large crowds of people all in one place, and there have been plenty of crimes in them, anyway. Preschoolers are rarely the objects of psychotic rages (except in Israel, where such massacres DID take place before the present policy was instituted).

So what's your answer? Do "gun-free zones" actually prevent violence?

If yes, please explain why a person intent on mass murder would be deterred by a sign.

If no--what is the point?
 
armoredman said:
Like Trolley Square Mall in Utah?

Congratulations. You've managed to draw a conclusion from a single data point. D+. You would have gotten a C has you also mentioned Hudson Valley Mall and Tacoma Mall. At least then you would have had more examples.

Now, for extra credit, please explain how these areas were chosen due to being gun-free zones instead of just public areas with lots of people. Remember the discussion at hand is whether a gun-free zone encourages people to shoot there, particularly regardng school and office shootings.

In simple terms, please show evidence that the fact that any of these areas were gun free zones led the shooter to choose this area over an area not posted.

cnorman18 said:
Convents, churches and State Fairs are not gun-free zones, at least not in Texas
They are in many states. I know it's hard for Texans to remember, but there are other states with their own laws. ;)

cnorman18 said:
National parks are not good places to find large crowds of people all in one place, and there have been plenty of crimes in them, anyway.
Wait, so you are saying that having large amounts of people is a greater factor for the shooter than merely being a gun free zone?

cnorman18 said:
Preschoolers are rarely the objects of psychotic rages
Hold the phone, that implies that the shooter is selecting targets based on something other than a convenient gun-free location.

cnorman18 said:
So what's your answer? Do "gun-free zones" actually prevent violence?
See, now you've gone and assumed that since I don't think that gun-free zones are a factor in target selection that I somehow think they are effective. This is simply not true. But, I'll go ahead and answer your questions regardless.
cnorman18 said:
If yes, please explain why a person intent on mass murder would be deterred by a sign.
It wouldn't and no more so than said person would be inspired by the same sign.
cnorman18 said:
If no--what is the point?
The point is that to say that a gun-free zone is somehow encouraing such rampages is largely without evidence as there are so many factors involved in someone snapping and shooting up a place. As you mentioned in your own post, there are numerous other considerations that make determining whether a gun-free zone was selected over other areas almost impossible. Fortunately, we are dealing with too small of a sample to really make a determination. I suspect, however, that since most of these people aren't planning on going home afterwards, they don't worry themselves too much about the existence of that sign, one way or the other.
 
wrong question

but I don't understand how disarming me makes me better able to defend myself.
 
Do gun-free homes encourage intruders?

I see lots of signs indicating gun-free school zones. I haven't seen a single sign on a front lawn indicating a gun-free home.

Hmm.
 
Congratulations. You've managed to draw a conclusion from a single data point. D+. You would have gotten a C has you also mentioned Hudson Valley Mall and Tacoma Mall. At least then you would have had more examples.

How about a couple more?

Ward Parkway Mall shooting in Kansas City, MO this year
And I believe there was a church shooting in some small town in MO a few months ago.

The church shooting was done by a guy who had a beef with specific people in the church. The mall shooting was done by a mentally deranged man who just wanted a target-rich environment, and was eventually gunned down by the police, but not before two people died.. Both were "gun free zones", to my knowledge.

Now as to the original question: I don't know if "gun free zones" are more attractive to criminals. However, I think that they probably know they won't get any resistance shooting there, which allows them to attack with more confidence.
 
Jorg

"Hold the phone, that implies that the shooter is selecting targets based on something other than a convenient gun-free location."

I don't think anyone ever said that finding a gun-free zone was the ONLY consideration when these things happen, or that such zones PROVOKE mass shootings. The question was, do they ENCOURAGE them? In other words, is it a FACTOR (not the CAUSE)?

As long as we're handing out grades, you get an F for addressing an argument that was never made. That tactic is commonly called a 'straw man".

The fact that virtually all of these shootings have occurred in "gun-free zones" rather indicates that their presence is, at least, a FACTOR in choosing them. It is unquestionably a factor in why the death toll is so often a high one when such places are chosen.
 
I think a portion of the 'school shooting problem' stem them being 'gun free zones'. There are those fools who believe 'gunfree zones' make them safe from retribution for their actions, and so they publicly antagonize certain persons with complete impunity. Eventually those persons are pushed over the edge (the medication those individuals recieve when they seek counseling for the psycological effects of that atagonisim doesn't help) and do what they do as a release mechanisim for the pent up anger they hold towards their antagonists. However, once they have reached this breaking point they are often no longer capable of distinguishing between their antagonists and the non-agressors.

I think guns in schools could help reduce the likelyhood of school shootings, not becuase they will deter the deranged, but becuase the presence of guns(or potential presense of guns) may well cause the student body to treat each other with more respect and thereby not create the type of persons that we have seen commiting those shootings.

just my opinion...
 
The question was, do they ENCOURAGE them? In other words, is it a FACTOR (not the CAUSE)?

Fair enough. I'm still waiting for the evidence it was is a factor. If even more importantly, how about an example that an area wasn't a gun-free zone served a deterrent. There are several examples where someone goes to a place they know there will be armed security of some flavor, yet they still go to commit ther crime.

As long as we're handing out grades, you get an F for addressing an argument that was never made. That tactic is commonly called a 'straw man".
I was addressing the claims made specifically in the article posted by you and posts 2, 4, and 7 that imply that a gun-free zone is somehow considered. My examples were to show that much greater consideration is giving other factors to the point that the gun-free zone is most likely not considered. Are you saying that given all the reasons in the above posts, you think that someone is going to go through with an attack based on whether the area is a gun-free zone.

I contend that for the most part, these shooting are targetting specific people or groups of people, such as classmates, coworkers, etc. Those that seem to be random, such as Trolley Square, are selected due to location and amounts of people. Overall security measures may be considered, but I sincerely doubt the shooter considers whether the citizens may be armed or not. Frankly, armed citizens aren't common enough, gun-free zone or not, to be much of a consideration. CCW permits are still relatively uncommon and those carrying regularly even more so.

As I said before, fortunately, this isn't something that happens often enough for us to analyze thoroughly. And unfortunately, the shooters are never around to question their motives or get into the thought process that led them down this path.

I have no doubt the gun-free zones do not act a deterrent for those bent on committing violence. But I fail to see any evidence that such places encourage these actions. I'm not for gun-free zones, but I certainly don't think this is an effective argument against them.

The other factors motivating people to do harm seem to far outweigh the repercussions of choosing a gun-free vs non-gun-free zone to the point where considering it a factor seems quite a stretch.
 
As I think we've established.... maybe it needs repeating.....

Crazy people and criminals don't read signs or obey laws
 
As I think we've established.... maybe it needs repeating.....

Crazy people and criminals don't read signs or obey laws

Right, but the question at hand is whether they are encouraged by the signs that they don't read or obey to go forth with acts of violence that they might have otherwise considered but not followed through with due to the possible presence of armed citizens. ;)
 
It makes their job easier but I see no sense in trying to credit a mad man with making logical decisions. People who are crazy to the point of wanting to murder dozens of people aren't making their decisions of what to do with what a sign on the wall says.
 
Shooting in a "Non Gun Free Zone"

It's no secret that schools are "Gun Free Zones." If it is a secret, it's not especially well kept: the students know it, their parents know it, the teachers and other school employees know it, and the newspapers know it when they publish stories about kids punished for bringing guns or knives into schools, or for drawing pictures of them. Other people might catch on by seeing unarmed school security guards. And still others could probably figure it out from seeing the "Gun Free Zone" signs, with the "No Gun" symbol for those who are functionally illiterate or inattentive.

But let's not allow ourselves to be diverted by red herrings, which alone amongst all the fish are always in season and in no danger of extinction. It's foolish to argue--or be misled into arguing--that "Gun Free Zones" cause school shootings or other murders. It's unlikely that a "Gun Free Zone" sign planted in the middle of an uninhabited area would attract many potential murderers. What's missing from that scenario are the murderer and the victims. No murderer, no murders. No victims, no dead bodies. That's probably why there are no school shootings with high body counts when the schools are not in session.

The murderers in all of the school shootings I remember were students, starting with Charles Whitman at the University of Texas in 1966, through Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold at Columbine High School in 1999, to Seung Hui Cho at Virginia Tech in 2007. All of them--and I would bet all others too--knew where and when they could score high body counts, make headline news for it, and operate without opposition long enough to make their mark on the world. All of those, and the others I remember, left evidence that they knew they would not get out of the situation alive. So they didn't fear death and, it seems obvious, they even welcomed it. They wanted to go out in style by killing as many people as possible before they were killed or killed themselves.

In order to rack up high body counts they needed concentrations of potential victims, the victims had to be helpless, and the murderers needed enough uninterrupted time to do their work.

What better place is there than a school as the ideal killing ground for a determined murderer who wants to make headlines? That's where the "Gun Free Zone" nature of schools becomes crucially important: the murderer need not worry that a teacher, administrator, other school employee, or parent could possibly intervene even if they had concealed handgun permits and were well trained. At colleges and universities, moreover, there's no need for a murderer to worry about intervention from students with concealed handgun permits and training either. I don't recall any mass murders at colleges or universities when I was a student back in the dark ages at a time when nobody seemed concerned if anybody had firearms in dormitories.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone contradicted me with records of school shootings before 1966 and Charles Whitman, but that would miss one of my points. The point is that if they existed they were considered isolated incidents, not good cause for constant worry and attempts to control the uncontrollable. Whitman's 1966 murders from the University of Texas mark the beginning of that phase.

My major point is not that "Gun Free Zones" cause school shootings but that they make them schools attractive and easy killing fields for would-be murderers, especially students, and most especially students who want to kill a lot of school-related people before their own lights go out. They want high body counts and schools are the place to get them. Whitman chose a relatively inaccessible place to do his sniping and brought backup weapons so his murder session could continue in case one failed. Harris and Klebold also had multiple weapons. Cho had two weapons and took the precaution of chaining doors to prevent police from getting at him quickly.

Those thoughts are not all original with me. For years Texas Representative Susanna Gratia Hupp has made many of those same points in her frequent attempts to explain--patiently but with great passion--why "Gun Free Zones" help kill people. They do help get a lot of people murdered.

In contrast, as Susanna Hupp points out, potential mass murderers of citizens tend not to ply their craft where they know their potential victims are likely to be armed. We're not talking about people who attack police and police stations. They are another breed entirely. There's no way to stop them because they're operating with different motives and other mental processes. Still, even they can be--and are--contained and their damage limited. That's what we're talking about: containment and limitation that prevent high body counts among the innocent.

Here the 1990 example of David Zaback becomes relevant. He is the man who tried to hold up a gun store in Seattle, Washington. A gun store is not a "Gun Free Zone" but that doesn't matter because Zaback didn't care. What matters is that Zaback was unable to murderl anyone because the venue he chose was a place where his potential victims were armed. They lived. He died. Zaback became "First Runner Up" for the 1997 Darwin Awards:

On February 3, 1990, a Renton (Seattle area) man tried to commit a robbery. This was probably his first attempt, as suggested by his lack of a record of violent crime, and by his terminally stupid choice:

1. The target was H&J Leather & Firearms, a gunshop;

2. The shop was full of customers, in a state where a substantial fraction of the adult population is licensed to carry concealed handguns in public places;

3. To enter the shop, he had to step around a marked King County Police patrol car parked at the front door;

4.An officer in uniform was standing next to the counter, having coffee before reporting to duty.

Upon seeing the officer, the would-be robber announced a holdup and fired a few wild shots. The officer and a clerk promptly returned fire, removing him from the gene pool. Several other customers also drew their guns, but didn't fire. No one else was hurt.

This happened February 4, 1990.

The robber, David Zaback, 33, died in the hospital a few hours after the shooting. His family said he suffered from a mental disorder that caused him to be irrational at times.​

That, I think, is what we should be talking about instead of whether "Gun Free Zones" cause murders. No one but David Zaback died when he started shooting in a gun store. A great many people in addition to the murderer die when the murderer starts shooting in a gun free zone.

Who in his right mind wouldn't rather be in a gun store instead of a school when a murderer begins the process of victim selection?
 
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