Israel high school not a Gun Free Zone: students live

[Robert Hairless]

When two Palestinian gunmen wearing Israeli Defense Force uniforms invaded a high school in Israel, an armed high school counselor shot them both dead right there. There were only minor injuries to two high school counselors. Here is a link to the story.

The Israeli high school evidently was not a Gun Free Zone, as high schools are in the United States of America. An Israeli army official praised the counselors' action. In the United States of America they almost certainly would have been arrested for violating a Gun Free Zone and fired from their jobs.

Counselors' heroism foils terror attack in Gush Etzion seminary high school

By Israel Insider staff
January 25, 2008

In Gush Etzion, southeast of Jerusalem, two Palestinian gunmen wearing IDF uniforms burst into the Makor Haim yeshiva high school. Wielding guns and knives, they lightly injured two Israeli counselors before being shot dead.

The terrorists infiltrated Makor Haim, a kibbutz, sneaking into the main building of its high school seminary, run by world-renowned Talmudist, Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz. The terrorists entered a library room where seven of the boarding school's counselors were meeting. Dressed as security guards, and armed with a knife and what appeared to be a gun -- it later turned out to be a toy -- ordered the seven to line up on one side of the room. A counselor, realizing they were terrorists, drew his personal firearm and opened fire. Another grabbed the fake gun from the other terrorist, wrestled him to the floor, while the first counselor shot him. The terrorists managed to stab two of the counselors before falling dead.

At the same time, the Beit Medrash (study hall) -- adjacent to the library -- was packed with students taking part in the weekly Thursday night "mishmar" all-night Torah study session, Israel National News reported.

An army official praised the quick response of the students and their counselors. "This could have ended much worse," a source in the Central Command said.

 

[norwegianoperator]

Well, in Israel they all know how to defend themselves.. Even the women need to serve in the military there. and they all learn Krav Maga self defense, and how to react quick. So they are all very prepared. They also live in a constant war situation back home, so they need the rights to defend themselves. I took my bodyguard education there, and its awsome. they really know how to deliver pain ;-)

 

[george29]

We just had this thread on this incident not a week ago.


http://www.thehighroad.org./showthread.php?t=334212

 

[Titan6]

Now George that thread got locked because people wanted to talk about the history of the Jewish state and Nazis and Wikipedia and all kinds of other nonsense that had nothing to do with the topic. People would never repeat that same mistake here...

 

[dhoomonyou]

there is now way this ( a teacher packing) would happen in the sheepy US.

it would be great though.

 

[Sergeant Sabre]

Ya, I imagine that if that happened here the liberals would say "The counselor had a gun? Well, he could have hurt somebody!!"

 

[Robert Hairless]

My apologies, George29. I hadn't seen the previous thread and the incident seemed relevant to this forum. If I'm wrong I hope that the moderators will close this thread and forgive me. Unless and until they do, how about if we register your disapproval and continue the discussion.

A few things about this incident interested me. There seems to be no reluctance for school personnel to be armed in Israel and it seems to be accepted by both the schools and the community. In the U.S. though both groups are adamantly opposed even though it seems clear to me that gun free schools in the U.S. are potential killing fields.

I wonder if the stark difference in attitudes might be in part because in the U.S. the dialogue has become confused and people think that the idea is to arm high school students and minors in college. Could it also be that in Israel there is more respect for the general competence of teachers, which might translate into greater trust for their ability to use firearms wisely?

I don't know, and I wonder what other people think. I also wonder what other people find to learn from this incident, if there's anything at all to be learned from it.

 

[JESmith]

I spent some time in Israel in the mid 70's. At that time there were a number of school massacres from terrorists invading schools. At that time, they were a prime target. The solution was to arm and train the teachers. I suspect that policy carries on to this day.

 

[shdwfx]

In Israel, it is socially acceptable to carry around an AR/AK like no bodies business. Bunch of little kids on a school trip? A rifleman brings up the rear.

Citizenship and a stringent application process are pre-reqs though. But if you are active military, it is common for soldiers to go home for Shabbat, and they take their guns with them.

 

[Titan6]

It might be interesting and eye opening to compare data from pre armament to post armament period and current day to data in the US. But wouldn't really matter in the long run. Who would carry a gun at a school other than the parents?

Laws forbid it now almost everywhere. Suppose we change the laws. The teachers won't carry, I only know a handful that don't get tremors when they are shown an eight year old's rendering of a gun. They would likely pass straight out if a gun were in their prescence without being under the control of an officer of the law. Since they wouldn't carry there is no way they would allow the kids to carry....

I know more than a few school administrators and support staff who would carry but most I imagine would go with the flow.

 

[Beatnik]

They also live in a constant war situation back home, so they need the rights to defend themselves.

The implication in this sentence is that since we in other countries do not live in a constant war situation, we don't need the right to defend ourselves.

I'm sure that's not what you meant........... ?

How about a more positive stance, like "this is what happens when your preexisting, natural right to self defense is not removed.

 

[Robert Hairless]

It might be a disservice to assume that all U.S. teachers, school administrators, and support staff are the same or have similiar attitudes. There are regional differences at least and certainly they're not all the same person.

Surely it's also a mistake to assume that people, even school employees, can't or don't change. When we were chatting with an anti-gun relative who teaches in a vigorously anti-gun area a few weeks ago she said she would be interested in learning to overcome her fears and learning to shoot. We didn't probe or poke at her so I can't say why the dramatic sea change. Maybe there's no single reason.

I don't tend to give up on people or assume they never change. People do the darndest things, which is a reason why they're always so interesting.

The laws, of course, forbid and discourage the kind of ending that took place in that Israeli school. I'm not so sure that the laws can't be changed too.

It hurts when I see reports of school shootings. I imagine what it must feel like to be an absolutely helpless teacher in such a situation and to know that the law has mandated that you can't have the means to defend the children in your charge. That's dreadfully wrong.

Good information JESmith and SHDWFX. So the law in Israel changed in or after the 1970s as a result of attacks on schools?

 

[K-Romulus]

Obviously, this message has been lost on Illinois and Northern Illinois University today . . .
http://www.volunteertv.com/news/headlines/15641667.html

CBS: At least 3 Shot on campus of Northern Illinois University Save Email Print
Posted: 4:50 PM Feb 14, 2008
Last Updated: 4:50 PM Feb 14, 2008

A | A | A

DE KALB, Ill (CBS) ― At least three people have been shot on the Northern Illinois University campus. The school is now on lockdown after reports of shots being fired on campus.

DeKalb police reports at least three people have been shot at Cole Hall. There are several ambulances on the scene. The incident apparently happened around 3:15 p.m.

"Police are trying to get everyone off campus,'' said student David Healy, who was near Cole Hall when the shooting happened. "At least five people have been pulled out on stretchers."

The Northern Illinois University website is reporting a possible gunman on campus. The website message is urging all students and faculty to take cover and get to a secure location.

The message urges everybody to avoid the the King Commons and all buildings in the vicinity.