Quantcast

Gun free zone and printing

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Yo Mama, Nov 8, 2019.

  1. Rick McC.

    Rick McC. Member

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    70
    Location:
    Weeki Wachee, FL
    So, you didn’t see a firearm “print,” you saw what you believe was a magazine? Could be he left the gun in the car...
     
    Demi-human, JR24 and ColtPythonElite like this.
  2. sequins

    sequins Member

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2014
    Messages:
    706
    I do not carry where legally prohibited out of an abundance of caution. I generally avoid these areas when possible. If I go to a baseball game or a school or a place where no guns carries the weight of the law I weight the value of going, knowing I must do so unarmed.

    I feel safer having gun rights and going unarmed occasionally than I would carrying after my rights had been revoked. Then it's like you're carrying at a school all day anywhere.

    That said I wouldn't report him, or even care. I'm assuming you know for a fact it's a parent. If I saw who knows who carrying at a school I would definitely size them up, but like they say "we're not cops" so when it comes to potential crime, suspected crime, or pre-crime I don't presume to play cop and I don't get involved.

    Do we follow scruffy looking teenagers walking in gated communities just in case maybe they're up to no good? Should we? Should we view this any differently?

    I would only intervene in any way if harm were occurring or imminent.
     
    oljames3 likes this.
  3. Waveski

    Waveski Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2014
    Messages:
    1,771
    Location:
    43 north
    So the guy who you say was "printing" ( which we naturally interpreted as meaning visual gun evidence through clothing ) , who you initially said you don't know but later stated that you've conversed with and asked about his gunsmithing , who you at least know to be a parent (of a kid in the school , I presume) was printing a cell phone and a magazine? No gun?

    If I were Joe Friday I'd be saying "Ok pal , let's take it from the top..."
     
    George Dickel and Yo Mama like this.
  4. IlikeSA

    IlikeSA Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2005
    Messages:
    1,033
    Usually I am with the mind your own business crowd. Today though, we have to police each other. I'm alright with open carry, and do so myself at times, but there is a time and place. For printing, I usually care less too.

    The last thing we need right now is THAT GUY who becomes another talking point or statistic to be used against the RKBA. Observe, then discretely mention it to him, remembering you don't want a scene.
     
    Yo Mama likes this.
  5. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

    Joined:
    Jun 4, 2008
    Messages:
    3,060
    Magazine on gun is what printed, at angle that it was in a gun. May have been unloaded who knows. It wasn't a spare mag, it was angled Nd at a height that it was clear.
     
  6. grampster
    • Contributing Member

    grampster Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    13,209
    Location:
    Wilderness of West Michigan
    Some fairly reasonable conversation here. But the OP didn't have all the info in it that should have been in it. Yo Mama added information later that would have been nice to know in the OP. So the alleged "printer" was known to Yo, who had spoken to him before, was known to be a gunsmith, didn't actually see the firearm, but did see the magazine. I suppose if one was going to say anything at all to the fellow, being in possession of the knowledge Yo was, the remarks in posts 17 and 24 might be the best.

    I'm opposed to gun free zones myself. They have proven to be abattoirs. Ironically in my state a citizen can't carry concealed in a school, but you can open carry on school grounds or in schools if you have a Michigan CPL. However the entire issue is still unsettled. The best advice is to know the laws and abide by them.
     
    Demi-human and oljames3 like this.
  7. tarosean

    tarosean Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2010
    Messages:
    6,723
    Location:
    TX
    We live in a different era for sure. Like it or not.
     
  8. jmorris

    jmorris Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2005
    Messages:
    13,663
    ^ you bet we do!

    Because he’s talking about having them visible in the back window of the truck, not just inside hidden somewhere.

    Not to mention that wasn’t even a very good spot in trucks of the day. They were single cab back then and the rack was always hitting one of the 3, 4, 5 or 6 folks in the bench seat, in the back of the head...
     
  9. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,827
    Location:
    Colorado
    I would only add two things to this, the first would be if you're uncertain of what to do don't do anything.

    The second thing would be, I wouldn't say a word to the other person. Not my circus. Not my monkeys.
     
    JR24, oljames3, alsaqr and 1 other person like this.
  10. RETG

    RETG Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2009
    Messages:
    478
    Location:
    Somewhere in Idaho But on the move; AGAIN!
    Not sure what state you are in, but some states do allow permit holders to carry inside a school (UT for one example). So more info is needed. However.....you say, "...for a fact I KNOW they are not law enforcement."
    However, two paras down you say, "I don't know the guy."
    So how do you know he is not in law enforcement?

    For many years, my neighbors thought I was a long distance truck driver (used to explain my long absences from the home) when I was really a federal agent.
     
    Lucky Derby and oljames3 like this.
  11. Wisco

    Wisco Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,223
    I wholly agree on your first point. Too many people have no clue what they’re doing when they act - in a variety of life activities.

    Actually, I agree with your second point, for myself anyway. I’m mostly aware of my surroundings, but also 99% disengaged from other humans in public and see little upside to any interaction - me saying anything in the OPs scenario would be a rare act of benevolence to a guy I might know or not.

    I certainly wouldn’t be friends or even well acquainted with someone so stupid they obviously print in a gun free zone with severe misdemeanor or felony consequences. That part makes me wonder...
     
  12. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,827
    Location:
    Colorado
    I have a rule that I don't start conversations with people I don't know (I rarely start conversations with people I do know) and certainly don't correct people I don't know.

    It's been my experience that it almost never ends well.
     
    JR24, oljames3 and Kleanbore like this.
  13. jamesjames

    jamesjames Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    Location:
    Southern Oregon Coast
    After considering this situation on my morning walk, and also reflecting on the Secret Service report on mass school shootings over the last 10 years, I have some observations.

    If you see an adult in a gun free zone printing, be discreet and respectful, but do say something. You will then get a quick assessment of his state of mind and situation.

    The school shooting report came up with no profile for a school shooter (student, peer shooter, not adult or outsider). But they came up with a constellation of attributes. Grievance from being bullied, delusion of grandeur, or catatonic state of being checked-out emotionally and on auto pilot for achieving task would be behavior tells.

    So if I did a discrete check-in with a parent who was printing, I would quickly be able to assess the threat. If he responds with embarrassment or gratitude for my concern and discretion, I’ll know things are cool. If his response is inappropriate for the situation, I should note that and take additional action if he is in distress.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2019
  14. Wisco

    Wisco Member

    Joined:
    Dec 13, 2013
    Messages:
    1,223
    That’s a definite similarity between us. Mine comes from the acceptance I have zero authority to enforce any correction I might offer and/or my feelings might be very hurt if they tell me eff off. :)

    The only thing better than deescalation is not escalating in the first place.

    I physically cringe when I’m approached in public, knowing whoever it is is going to attempt to get some sort of attention they’re lacking from me.
     
    JR24, oljames3 and Trunk Monkey like this.
  15. Trunk Monkey

    Trunk Monkey Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,827
    Location:
    Colorado
    What if he tells you FO MYOB? Because that's a very likely possibility?
     
    oljames3 likes this.
  16. jamesjames

    jamesjames Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2010
    Messages:
    398
    Location:
    Southern Oregon Coast
    If I am communicating with confidence, warmth, and discretion as a fellow gunny in the know, he should be able to pick up on those social cues.

    I don’t usually respond to genuine, friendly concern with FO, MYOB
     
  17. Kleanbore

    Kleanbore Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Aug 13, 2008
    Messages:
    8,820
    You are making a lot of assumptions about someone whom you do not know.

    What does that have to do with it?
     
    Demi-human, JR24 and oljames3 like this.
  18. Insignificant bill

    Insignificant bill Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2019
    Messages:
    107
    Sounds like you pretty much know he isn't there to shoot up the school. I would mind my own business.
     
    oljames3 likes this.
  19. BSA1

    BSA1 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2011
    Messages:
    7,154
    Location:
    West of the Big Muddy, East of the Rockies and Nor
    Well you keep adding more information. So this is not a observation of a unknown person. You not only know his occupation but you have had previous conversation(s) with him so based on that you should have some feeling about his character and mental state.

    Is the fact you know he is a gunsmith influencing your belief that he was packing iron? I personally expect a gunsmith to be carrying and have seen some gunsmiths packing interesting choices when it comes to handguns.

    If anything based on your knowledge of his occupation and previous conversation(s) with him I would have very little concern about him committing a violent crime. Rather due to how slow the Police response times usually are he may be first on the scene and the primary responder.
     
    oljames3 likes this.
  20. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    10,401
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    That was a pretty useless report, wasn't it? Nothing in it was actionable. About all that they determined is that there is no profile what-so-ever that can be used in predictive manner and their suggestions for dealing with such shootings in order to head them off was that each school should have a team of highly trained personnel to basically assess the student body on a regular basis to spot troubled individuals and get them help. Most of the attributes they came up with would apply to huge segments of the student body. All of the traits mentioned, even combinations of them, are in no way diagnostic of a shooter. I think like 9/11, this was one of those deals where it is much easier to back trap a single person to figure out what went wrong than it is the front track a whole population of people in order to stop a shooting from occurring. https://www.secretservice.gov/data/protection/ntac/usss-analysis-of-targeted-school-violence.pdf

    What if upon being discovered, he just shoots and kills you?
     
    Demi-human likes this.
  21. bdickens

    bdickens Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    914
    Location:
    Hockley , TX
    Yeah. I've found that unsolicited advice is usually unwelcome as well.
     
    JR24, Obturation, oljames3 and 2 others like this.
  22. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    8,509
    Location:
    SC (Home), VA (Work)
    "Printing" is not "seeing a firearm". It's seeing an outline of something under clothing.

    I carry everywhere I can. In places where I cannot carry, I STILL have my magazine pouch on my belt, sans magazine. Absolutely nothing wrong with this in accordance with any laws that I've ever run across...but print it will.

    In fact, the only reason why I don't carry an empty holster in the same fashion is because of basic firearms safety: I firmly believe the safest place for a holstered firearm is to remain IN the holster in the first place. So...if I'm going to be entering a gun free zone, the entire holster comes out and gets locked away per the applicable jurisdictional laws. If I didn't believe this way, the firearm would come out and the holster would stay. And printing as a result may happen.

    On top of this, there are some people who are exempt from the gun free zone laws. Are you sure this person is or is not one of those people?

    To answer the question of "what to do", every person here would have to evaluate the specific circumstances in any given encounter through the filters of their own training, their own biases, their own moral outlook, and their own "gut feeling" about the situation.

    You can go all the way in either direction: report ANY such suspicious encounters or ignore ALL such encounters.

    The path to wisdom, however, usually lies between those extremes.

    Personally...if all I saw was "printing" with no other warning signs, I'd be more likely to tag the person in my mind as someone to be more aware of and move on with my business.
     
    oljames3, WheelGunMan and bdickens like this.
  23. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2004
    Messages:
    6,066
    Location:
    somewhere on Puget Sound
    Believe the OP had previously noted his state as Washington.

    Even if your children attended that school, and you didn't know the person?

    RCW 9.41.280
    Possessing dangerous weapons on school facilities—Penalty—Exceptions. (Effective until January 1, 2020.)

    (1) It is unlawful for a person to carry onto, or to possess on, public or private elementary or secondary school premises, school-provided transportation, or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools:
    (a) Any firearm;
    ...
    (3) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:
    ...
    (e) Any person in possession of a pistol who has been issued a license under RCW 9.41.070, or is exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060, while picking up or dropping off a student;

    ...
    (7) "GUN-FREE ZONE" signs shall be posted around school facilities giving warning of the prohibition of the possession of firearms on school grounds.
     
    RetiredUSNChief likes this.
  24. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2008
    Messages:
    5,479
    Location:
    Flatlandistan
    "or areas of facilities while being used exclusively by public or private schools"

    This is interesting. Say the school decides to hold an outing at a reserved section of a public park. You stroll through while armed not knowing about this. Pretty vague, you could easily be in violation and arrested.
     
  25. RetiredUSNChief

    RetiredUSNChief Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2012
    Messages:
    8,509
    Location:
    SC (Home), VA (Work)
    Aaaaaand here we go with the supplementary qualifiers.

    The answer to your question lies within that one portion of my posting that you quoted for your question. I'll repost that quote here, unchanged except for the emphasis on the important part...and then I'll directly answer your question:

    "Personally...if all I saw was "printing" with no other warning signs, I'd be more likely to tag the person in my mind as someone to be more aware of and move on with my business"

    So, my direct answer to your question is "Yes, even if my children attended that school and I didn't know that person".

    My actions are predicated upon my interpretation of the holistic circumstances present at the time I observe them. On hypothetical postings online, they are predicated upon my interpretation of the specific circumstances prescribed in the posting itself. (Usually with my own qualifiers.)

    If people come along after answering the posting and say "well, what about (fill in the blank)", then they're changing the specific set of circumstances. (Usually in a way that tends to invalidate a previously given answer.)

    I don't play that game, unless it's for something like instructional purposes.

    LOTS of things can be interpreted as "printing", and in reality MANY of those things may be the result of non-weapon items.

    And even the fact that an individual MAY be carrying a weapon does not, in fact, automatically mean they are a danger to children, mine or anybody else's.

    LET'S PUT THIS IN ANOTHER PERSPECTIVE:

    The ONLY thing that makes any given person carrying a firearm into a designated gun free zone, such as a school, "bad" is the law which SAYS it's bad. Carrying a firearm is not, in and of itself, "bad". Or, in legal latin terms "malum in se", which means "evil in itself". It's an example of a law that makes something "bad" ONLY because the law SAYS it's bad. The legal latin for this is "malum prohibitum", or "wrong because it's prohibited".

    There is no difference in the inherent danger of carrying a firearm in many gun free zones than in any other area where such an activity is not deemed "illegal".

    My children had/have more contact with the world than just gun free zone schools. The inherent danger of any given person carrying a concealed weapon in any of them was not, and is not, any different.

    Why should my answer, therefore, be any different than the answer I would give in any other circumstance outside of a gun free zone?
     
    JR24 and bdickens like this.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice