do i really need a chrono?

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Reloadron; I'm surprised the lattice on your porch has held up so well. :p
One of the reasons you might "need" a chrono is long range shooting. It's always worked out better for me using measured velocity values for figuring bullet drop than using the values from reloading tables.
 
When surplus powder was available a chrono was a must have. Surplus powder is gone for now but it may come back. Now I use it if a load is not listed for a bullet weight I'm loading. There is a draw back because they relay on the sun over the screens. I'm thinking of buying one of the magnetics kind.
 
Reloadron; I'm surprised the lattice on your porch has held up so well. :p
One of the reasons you might "need" a chrono is long range shooting. It's always worked out better for me using measured velocity values for figuring bullet drop than using the values from reloading tables.
LMAO, the pic was taken during a prop and don't I wish I could ebjoy shooting off the rear deck as many can. :) I actually thought when posting the picture of the screens it looked out of place. :)

Ron
 
When surplus powder was available a chrono was a must have. Surplus powder is gone for now but it may come back. Now I use it if a load is not listed for a bullet weight I'm loading. There is a draw back because they relay on the sun over the screens. I'm thinking of buying one of the magnetics kind.
What's nice is today's chronographs are feature packed including the use of battery powered IR LEDs on the screens. Also how some interface with cell phones to display data or interface with a laptop on the range. Really cool stuff available today that was unheard of 20 years ago. My old Oehler 35P does a paper print out and a few basic math functions, that was as good as it got a few decades ago.

Ron
 
There is a draw back because they relay on the sun over the screens. I'm thinking of buying one of the magnetics kind.

Using ambient light for the sensors can be a pain at times. That is why I got the IR lights for my CED M2. Much more reliable sensing of the bullet.

The sensors still need to be shielded from direct sunlight though as the sun seems to over power the IR and then the sensors do not "see" the bullet.

I use a Magnetospeed chronograph with rifle these days. Also works great and you do not have to go down range to set up the sensors. Little advantage in my back yard but great when sharing a range with other shooters.

While Magnetospeed now offers some attachments for handguns, it is still limited and the chronograph will not measure all handguns. The sensors, or bayonet as Magnetospeed calls the device, mounts to the barrel of the gun.
 
Don't have one, don't have anywhere I could use one - I mostly shoot at local indoor gun shop ranges where they would be impossible to setup or use.
 
Midway's flyer shows their CE ProChrono as starting at $52.99 if your interested. I found one to be very useful for seeing the results of local temp and pressure changes.
 
If you care about the following;

The "craft" of reloading.
The need to be at safe pressures, over a complete velocity range, for a given calibre.
The "need" to chase velocity.
The need to understand first hand the interrelationship of components and how they can materially affect pressure.
The need to match your last accurate load with a new one but with different brass or powder, without throwing too much lead down range.
The need to understand that not all bullets of the same weight act the same.

Then you need a chrony.

The two biggest improvements in my reloading has been a chrony and Quickload. As stated previously, and by way of example, measuring the velocity spread of a given batch of loads is diagnostic.

It allowed me to correlate poor reloading practice to velocity. My .375 I was getting an SD of 8.5fps, It came time for annealing so I decided to hand anneal my brass (my first time at annealing). On the next batch of identical loads the SD drifted out to 25fps and accuracy took a tumble. This made me remember how some bullets seated more readily than others and clearly that my annealing skills were dismal. A re-anneal on a mates machine fixed the problem.

Now many would argue that a velocity spread of some 50fps odd at 100yds does not display significant variations in vertical displacement so one would miss this effect when looking at the target and evaluating it at face value. That is why ladder tests are conducted at 500yds plus. However, if one is a believer in the OBT method for developing loads (and I can positively attest that this is a highly efficient means to an end) then one would know that 50fps off the node speed is enough to open the group up. QL needs a chrony.

On the same .375 I was soon to realise that trying to match the velocity of off the shelf ammo was dangerous. In so doing I found myself at a calculated 72 000psi without any signs of pressure on primer, bolt handle or case On checking the brass had an internal case volume of 5gr. H2O less than SAAMI, the powder was a hot batch and it was a compressed load in order to get to the commercial ammo speeds. These factors culminated in higher pressures as pressure is not linear.

A chrony also proved to me that IMHO there is no such thing a s a flyer, a flyer is simply a poor shot. I have pulled shots an inch up and an inch right and the recorded velocity was less than the average. Explain that if velocity determines vertical displacement?

So as a hand loader I would not be without my chrony during load development.
 
I have a chronograph that I probably don't use more than 4 times a year.

I have my own shooting range which I usually use at least weekly during acceptable weather.

I'm equipped to load close to 40 different cartridges.

You don't need a chronograph to load accurate cartridges, to judge pressure, etc. The assumption that a certain velocity means a certain pressure is a false one.
 
You don't need a chronograph to load accurate cartridges, to judge pressure, etc. The assumption that a certain velocity means a certain pressure is a false one.

We should probably take this off thread ....

Explain the science of why it is false?

Secondly, explain to me why reloading manuals use velocity as a guide to safe loads where being within pressure limits = safe. If your assumption is correct then the quoted velocity in manuals has no relationship to pressure and therefore why bother to quote the velocity, just give us the powder charge and COL and be done with it.

Cheers
 
No - you don't need one. I loaded for years without one.

That said, after I got one - I'd never load again without it. They're not that expensive. I use a Prochrono Digital which last I looked was like $99. I believe some of the "Shooting Chrony" ones are down around the $70 mark.
 
We should probably take this off thread ....

Explain the science of why it is false?

Secondly, explain to me why reloading manuals use velocity as a guide to safe loads where being within pressure limits = safe. If your assumption is correct then the quoted velocity in manuals has no relationship to pressure and therefore why bother to quote the velocity, just give us the powder charge and COL and be done with it.

Cheers

Velocity DOES have a ralationship to pressure but you can't assume that a certain velocity means a certain pressure. Velocity is an indirect indication of pressure. Reloading manuals don't list velocities with pressures for the purpose of showing what a safe pressure is; it's just the data they got in their ballistics lab. Just because a certain amount of powder gave them a certain safe pressure and a certain velocity figure doesn't mean it will be the same in your gun.

Perhaps you didn't know that at higher pressures velocity can start going down? In a worse case scenario, the bullet doesn't go fast at all and you have gun parts all over your face.

Saeed over on accuratereloading.com once did a test on a number of "identical" rifles using the same load in all. Velocities varied by as much as 200 fps. Gun barrels, chambers, etc. are different in different guns; even the supposedly identical ones.
 
Explain the science of why it is false?

If we can agree that different powders can push a projectile to a given velocity and resulting pressures could be different, that makes the velocity=pressure obviously incorrect.

While it is nice to know velocity, knowing it helps group size about as much as a speedometer makes people good drivers.
 
Velocity DOES have a ralationship to pressure but you can't assume that a certain velocity means a certain pressure. Velocity is an indirect indication of pressure. Reloading manuals don't list velocities with pressures for the purpose of showing what a safe pressure is; it's just the data they got in their ballistics lab. Just because a certain amount of powder gave them a certain safe pressure and a certain velocity figure doesn't mean it will be the same in your gun.

Perhaps you didn't know that at higher pressures velocity can start going down? In a worse case scenario, the bullet doesn't go fast at all and you have gun parts all over your face.

Saeed over on accuratereloading.com once did a test on a number of "identical" rifles using the same load in all. Velocities varied by as much as 200 fps. Gun barrels, chambers, etc. are different in different guns; even the supposedly identical ones.


Then we are on the same page. Speed is not an empirical guide to pressure as one could load a pistol powder in the rifle cartridge with dangerous results. All powders have a different burn rates and these differ significantly. I was not talking about extremes that would lead to absolute disaster or extremes when obviously incorrect powders are employed incorrectly.

What I should have qualified is that when moving up and down the load scale with an existing powder (or a powder of very similar burn rate) then pressure and velocity are definitely related and closely so. Then velocity is a very good guide to pressure within the load routine.

Load tables assume a standard chamber, cartridge internal volume, barrel length, COL etc. and a generic bullet weight. The tables offer load data against these parameters. If one was to have a worst case scenario, bullet slightly heavy, chamber tight, a brass case at the lower volume end and the a powder at the top end of the burn rate scale one could end up with a hot round. So exactly how would one know this if not for a measured speed.
 
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If we can agree that different powders can push a projectile to a given velocity and resulting pressures could be different, that makes the velocity=pressure obviously incorrect.

See above

While it is nice to know velocity, knowing it helps group size about as much as a speedometer makes people good drivers.

I do not believe this statement to valid according to my experience. If I match the MV of a good load with the same velocity of closely related powder B I get the same result.
 
Quoted from above post:
"according to my experience. If I match the MV of a good load with the same velocity of closely related powder B I get the same result."

Perhaps the key word here is experience. I would suggest that as you gain more experience you will discover that there are exceptions to this observation. As any experienced benchrest shooter will be happy to explain and give examples
 
The need for a chronograph, only if you think you really need one. I think it’s more of a gadget for the Handloader than a Reloader.

As an example on average from what I’ve observed (a shooting range association membership of approximately 800 individuals) most individuals shoot handguns at 10Yds and under. There are some that shoot at 25Yds and at 50Yds you’ll be talking to yourself. As for rifles the rifle range distances are 50 –100 & 200 Yds. The majority shoot from bench rest at the 100Yd line targets.

In twenty plus years, I’ve yet to see a chronograph employed by anyone of the shooters I’ve witnessed. Of course someone could have used one when I wasn't there to observe.
 
I loaded for quite a while without one. Wouldn't think about not owning one after having one. It doesn't get used often, but the data is very important. There are plenty of $100 units that are close enough so cost isn't a huge factor.

You can drive a car without a speedometer too, but you'll eventually get into trouble if you do. Same with reloading.
 
If one was to have a worst case scenario, bullet slightly heavy, chamber tight, a brass case at the lower volume end and the a powder at the top end of the burn rate scale one could end up with a hot round. So exactly how would one know this if not for a measured speed.

As I mentioned above, velocity is an indirect measure of pressure.

How you would know would depend on what type of gun you are shooting and on the cartridge. For a bolt action rifle in a chambering of 6mm on up, you will probably have things like sticky bolt lift, primer cratering, a primer leak, a pierced primer or a blown primer. For a smaller cartridge like a 223 Remington, you probably won't have a sticky bolt lift before a primer leak.

For the Encores and Contenders I shoot a lot, sticky opening of the action is the first sign. Semiautos are a lot more tricky and I'm not going to expand on that. For low pressure rounds like most revolvers and shotguns you will not get any pressure or primer signs before the pressure is too high; you need to make sure you are well within accepted load parameters and you can also forget chaseing velocity as an indicator of pressure.
 
There are two chrono people in this world. One's with chrono that haven't used and one's with chronos that are shot to pieces. Always remember the height of your optics MUST be taken into consideration when placing you shots above the chrono. (I just got number 4 chrono).
 
what reloadron said, use the barrel to line up the rifle, not the scope.

i have to disagree with grumulkin, velocity and pressure are directly related (in about a 1:4 ratio). when the chrony shows a velocity increase, you can be assured the pressure is also increasing.

i've killed one chrony ... so far! i overestimated the recoil of my naa mini revolver and punched a neat little hole right in the front photocell.

i don't think anyone needs a chrony, but they sure make handloading a lot easier for me.

luck,

murf
 
Will the same rifle and load produce the same velocity average, SD and ES regardless of who shoots it and how it is held when fired?
 
You don't need one but they are fun/useful.

I didn't have one until very recently and i've been reloading multiple calibers for close to a decade.

I was missing out.
 
Just got out this past weekend to test out a "Magnetospeed Sporter" ,, Pretty simple unit, once you figure out how to attach to your rifle. Had my buddy sit next to me and record 5 strings of 5 shots each. It confirms the reloading manuals estimated fps, and was almost dead on. . It was interesting to see how spikes in velocity could be felt instantly.. There were a few shots that as soon as they lit, I could tell something wasn't right, and sure enough the chrono confirmed that those shots were faster than the others ..
 
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