Do octagonal barrels improve accuracy in lever actions...

[LiveLife]

As a retired barrel maker, I can tell you that ... octagon barrel is stiffer than a round barrel of the same weight is untrue

How about heavier octagonal barrel as OP updated?

I should have clarified the heavier profile of many octagonals in the question.

 

[3Crows]

Back in the day when muzzle loader rifles were basically hand made one at a time it was a LOT simpler to make the barrel octagonal with the technology of the day. As machinery improved and guns started to be mass produced it was then that round barrels became more practical. It reduced the weight. But the idea of an octagonal barrel was seen as aesthetically correct on muzzle loaders, and early smokeless powder guns like the early lever guns carried on the tradition. Personally I think they look cool on certain rifles. Not sure they offer any advantage.

Saying a lever action is accurate is relative. Accurate compared to what? More accurate than they are often given credit for, and accurate enough to do the job they are designed for, yes. Compared to most more modern designs, no.

I agree, but I put a target up that is typical of that particular rifle. So it is not an in general compared to "what" but is instead, rather specific and measurable and it was MOA or very close at 100 yards. I agree with what you are saying but accuracy can be measured and demonstrated for rifles, ammo and the biggest variable, the rifleman. But sure, modern bolts rifles and some AR platforms can provide extreme accuracy and since they mostly utilize cartridges that are known to be accurate and were often designed with that in mind (6.5CM for example), yes, lever guns are outclassed. Most deer are shot and killed at well under 300 hundred yards, most under 100.

I guess I am with the well known gentleman that said that only accurate rifles were interesting. But I bet he would agree that he meant that within a category or type of rifle, not that a lever gun was not interesting because it could not ring steel at 1,000 yards like a 6.5CM (might) could. Lever guns are accurate enough for me to find them interesting, at least some are. I do not keep the uninteresting ones, lol. Which is why that REP 336 is a keeper and several JMs I have had were found, regrettably, despite being pretty, not especially interesting and were no longer dated. Ever met a woman, she was as pretty as could be and you ask her out and discover that there is nothing there? And that goes both ways ladies, not being sexist. I guess I am a practical sort, looks count, but there has to be something there to back it up and in a rifle, that is accuracy sufficient for the intended purpose.

 

[PRD1]

How about heavier octagonal barrel as OP updated?

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No, for reasons previously stated. I've made about a thousand barrels, every one a custom order to suit an individual customer, and in all calibers and contours. Those customers wanting the most accurate barrel ordered round contours, sometimes quite heavy. Those concerned more with appearance got octagon, half-octagon, fluted, ribbed, etc. All of these barrels were equally well made, hand lapped and finished - they were all excellent barrels, but the most consistently and finely accurate were round.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

 

[LiveLife]

I've made about a thousand barrels ... customers wanting the most accurate barrel ordered round contours, sometimes quite heavy ... but the most consistently and finely accurate were round.

Interesting and mirrors my experience with AR barrels.

My 20" HBAR and current 18" .223 Wylde builds with heavier barrels outshoot thinner AR barrels ... But I am trending accuracy after several magazines and sufficient barrel warm up to where barrels get hot.

So you are saying heavy round barrel is better than heavy octagonal barrel for cold barrel "hunting" application?

 

[Varminterror]

Very good point.

I am thinking about doing H335 vs Benchmark comparison in the Handloading and Reloading category and will see if I can test that notion.

To clarify my above implication: I’m quite certain the hypothesis CAN be proven true for individual rifles, and likely as well for individual designs even. As I described in my previous, a basic test to prove this hypothesis is as simple as 50 rounds down range in an afternoon.

But rather my intent was to imply that when I have been presented with a claim of thermal expansion stringing, I have never been provided the proof to support that the theory was truly realized in that particular rifle.

 

[Varminterror]

No, for reasons previously stated. I've made about a thousand barrels, every one a custom order to suit an individual customer, and in all calibers and contours. Those customers wanting the most accurate barrel ordered round contours, sometimes quite heavy. Those concerned more with appearance got octagon, half-octagon, fluted, ribbed, etc. All of these barrels were equally well made, hand lapped and finished - they were all excellent barrels, but the most consistently and finely accurate were round.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

This makes complete sense to me: given the same weight, the radius difference between hexagonal or octagonal barrels and round is minimal, however, in the way these barrels are made to their polygonal form inevitably introduces a lot of heat and stress which I expect will easily overwhelm any slight structural advantage. Even if stress relieved, fixing something once broken is never as reliable as avoidance of breaking it in the first.

 

[LiveLife]

To clarify my above implication: I’m quite certain the hypothesis CAN be proven true for individual rifles, and likely as well for individual designs even. As I described in my previous, a basic test to prove this hypothesis is as simple as 50 rounds down range in an afternoon.

But rather my intent was to imply that when I have been presented with a claim of thermal expansion stringing, I have never been provided the proof to support that the theory was truly realized in that particular rifle.

I see. And having followed your excellent posts over the years, I now understand and learned there are shooting variables just like reloading variables that can overshadow other variables.

I agree with you that when I see vertical stringing, I am more inclined to consider bullet drop from velocity variation instead of barrel heating up and becoming a wet noodle. So unless I can isolate shooting variables, providing "proof" of thermal expansion or wet noodle affect may be difficult and why no one has provided you such proof.

 

[PRD1]

LiveLife:

No, I did not say that. A hunting rifle is not a target rifle, and you MIGHT get an octagon barrel which would place its first shot from a cold barrel exactly the same (or nearly so) every time, or which would place a group of 3-5 shots similarly and in a small spread, but the odds of getting a barrel which will do so are heavily in favor of a round contour of the same weight.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

 

[LiveLife]

So you are saying heavy round barrel is better than heavy octagonal barrel for cold barrel "hunting" application?

No, I did not say that. A hunting rifle is not a target rifle, and you MIGHT get an octagon barrel which would place its first shot from a cold barrel exactly the same (or nearly so) every time, or which would place a group of 3-5 shots similarly and in a small spread, but the odds of getting a barrel which will do so are heavily in favor of a round contour of the same weight.

Thank you. Appreciate the clarification based on barrel making experience.

I don't have a dog in this fight as I shoot mostly semi-auto carbines and rifles but saw the contour of barrel related to accuracy discussion interesting.

And based on my limited experience, same weight barrels can differ in accuracy greatly depending on the manufacturer and quality of construction that can overshadow other variables to affect accuracy.

This makes complete sense to me: given the same weight, the radius difference between hexagonal or octagonal barrels and round is minimal, however, in the way these barrels are made to their polygonal form inevitably introduces a lot of heat and stress which I expect will easily overwhelm any slight structural advantage. Even if stress relieved, fixing something once broken is never as reliable as avoidance of breaking it in the first.

Speaking of variables (not sure if this will translate to rifle barrels), I found shooting various pistol barrels of same caliber and length (BCA, KKM, Lone Wolf, Tactical Kinetics vs factory) that bore/groove diameter, type of rifling, twist rate, freebore/leade length, chamber dimensions and quality of construction all contribute to accuracy and these variables may play a greater part.

And for pistol barrels, I doubt any type of fluting or exterior designs/cuttings will have significant affect on accuracy produced.

 

[PRD1]

based on my limited experience, same weight barrels can differ in accuracy greatly depending on the manufacturer and quality of construction that can overshadow other variables to affect accuracy.

That is correct. A rifle and its ammunition are a system, in which all the parts must work properly together for the best results. It is entirely possible to build a rifle with the best available barrel and produce a finished product which performs poorly. The variables in ammunition are another potential source of inaccuracy in any given rifle, but also offer some possibilities for obtaining better performance from individual arms which do not initially shoot well. And I, too, hold with COL Whelen that only accurate rifles are interesting. I do have to caveat that statement to say 'accurate within the limitations of their type': I am pleased and happy that my original, octagon-barreled 1873 Winchester .38-40 and .44-40 rifles will both consistently group 10 shots in 3 1/2" at 100 yards with Lyman tang sights.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

 

[WestKentucky]

Any barrel shape other than round is extra material that either needs milled off or has been milled off. Yes it looks good, no I don’t want to pack an extra pound of scrap iron still wrapped around my barrel. Slab sided or fluted barrels are a decent combination of the heavy barrel accuracy as well as weight reduction, but I have never seen a true heavy barrel lever let alone a fluted heavy or a slabbed heavy. They may exist, but I suspect that they would be custom jobs and rare as fossilized hens teeth.

 

[PRD1]

Any barrel shape other than round is extra material that either needs milled off or has been milled off. Yes it looks good, no I don’t want to pack an extra pound of scrap iron still wrapped around my barrel. Slab sided or fluted barrels are a decent combination of the heavy barrel accuracy as well as weight reduction, but I have never seen a true heavy barrel lever let alone a fluted heavy or a slabbed heavy. They may exist, but I suspect that they would be custom jobs and rare as fossilized hens teeth.

'Heavy' barrels on lever action repeaters are unusual, even truly rare, but not unknown. Winchester Model 1873 rifles were offered with 2 heavier-than- standard octagon barrels: the 'heavy', which had a muzzle measuring 27/32" across the flats, and an even heavier type (called the 'Buffalo Barrel' by collectors) measuring a full 1" across the flats, while the standard barrel was 23/32" at that point. The heaviest type added close to 2 pounds to the rifle's weight. Only about 1 in 1100 model 1873's had heavy barrels. My .44-40 has the 'heavy' barrel and deluxe wood, both special order features. A technical point which adds some difficulties to adding a heavier barrel to a tube-magazine lever action is that the bottom flat must be milled concave to provide clearance for the magazine tube.

PRD1 - mhb - MIke

 

[Riomouse911]

I don’t know if they are any more accurate... but IMHO I think they look better on a lever gun than a round barrel .

Stay safe.

 

[Frulk]

Never sat down to see if any of my octagon barreled rifles shoot better than their round counterparts. However, I do know that shooting them improves my overall mood. They never fail to make me smile, even by just picking them up. As CraigC said above “they’re awesome in other ways”

 

[rkittine]

No - But than I like the look of a octagon barrel.

 

[Steve S.]

The overview of the barrel maker makes sense to me. I have chosen octagonal barrels over the years for aesthetic reasons only not giving any thought to machining stresses, accuracy, etc simply because I was not aware. I would still choose octagonal barrels on my rifles with same but I learned a lot reading this thread - thank you.

 

[GooseGestapo]

A longer, heavier barrel is “more shootable” from other than bench rest positions that were formerly the “standard” for comparison.
Now days, it’s absolute Precision as measured shot from bench positions.

I’ve got close to two dozen l/a rifles. Some “string” if shot rapidly. Other’s don’t.
Some are near MOA, others 2-4moa. None are grossly inaccurate if barrels are allowed to cool.

My favorite is a Marlin M336A .35Rem. I’ve on more than one occasion shot 3-shot groups at 185yds (longest distance available at my home range) under 1” with either a Remington 200gr Corlokt, 200gr Hornady Interlok, 200gr FTX, or 200gr Sierra ProHunter over 40.0gr of H4895.

However, if I rap off 5-rds consecutively, #4-5, will string upwardly,and to right. to 3-4” at 100yds.
However, I have a .338MX that will shoot 3-shots into 0.8moa or 1.2moa 5-shots.
My .308MXLR and .338 MXLR strings like the .35.
So what?! They are MAGNIFICENT hunting rifles. Especially for me, a lefty rifle shooter.

One hole group was shat by lower of two 1895’s in accompanying photo. 50yds, shots 4-5, not shoes walked group upward. Still leess than 1” (400gr cast bullet at 1,350fps). 5-shot group by 1894 .218Bee laying on deer. Superb “walk-about” Rifle. Under 1.5moa with loads it likes. .308MXLR on orange target; first shots nearest center, remaining walking upward, still at/under 2moa.