A friend of mine asked me this because in one of his dumb video games (call of duty mw2) the suppressor shortens range. I told him I believe its BS but will try to find out. I couldn't find anything yet so here I am asking this silly question. I'm sort of this guy's "firearm mentor" so I like to make sure I answer all his questions with honest answers. So if anyone knows please reply.
Do Suppressors Hinder Ballistic Performance?
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Jorg Nysgerrig
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Video games are rarely a source of accurate firearms information. That said, a suppressor by itself shouldn't make much difference, but subsonic ammunition will certainly have a different trajectory. Since subsonic ammunition is often used with suppressors, that might be what they were trying to model.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
I play some of those games too and most games seem to decrease range or "stopping power" with a can on the gun. None of the real (actual gun) reviews I've seen have shown a noticeable decrease in velocity or accuracy (A couple have even shown improvements) so I think it's just a video game thing, aka: if it's louder it must be more powerful!!!111!!!
The local vermin that have fallen to my suppressed .22 don't seem any less deader than without, and the targets usually show a very slight shift in POI but no change in accuracy (except for a slight baffle strike issue I'm working on with a certain P22, ugh!)
Edit: just read Jorg's post and he makes a good point (although subsonic .223 and .308 ammo isn't readily available as far as I'm aware, but neither is much of the stuff in those games).
The local vermin that have fallen to my suppressed .22 don't seem any less deader than without, and the targets usually show a very slight shift in POI but no change in accuracy (except for a slight baffle strike issue I'm working on with a certain P22, ugh!)
Edit: just read Jorg's post and he makes a good point (although subsonic .223 and .308 ammo isn't readily available as far as I'm aware, but neither is much of the stuff in those games).
The Wiry Irishman
Member
My FFL does long-range shooting with a suppressed (not integral) .308. He said the point of impact changes when you put the suppressor on, but the group size does not change.
moooose102
Member
Well, i can not have one in the gustoppo state of michigan, so from experience, i can not answer. But, since they realistcly only work well with subsonic loads, i really cant imagine there would be enough difference to measure.
WoofersInc
Member
This is an all to common misconception about suppressors. They do work with full power loads. A modern centerfire suppressor will give you about 30 decibels of noise reduction. Using full power ammo the sonic crack will still be heard but for anything down range it will be difficult to pinpoint where the sound is coming from which is a benefit to the shooter. You still get the reduction of muzzle blast and noise at the gun.
For example a good 5.56 suppressor will take an AR15 shooting standard rounds and reduce the sound to what a 22LR gun would sound like. That is a significant reduction in noise.
As for the origional question a suppressor will not reduce range. Some testing has been done and shows there is no difference in muzle velocity. In fact in some instances muzzle velocity has been raised slighty by the suppressor.
larry_minn
Member
Can't have them in MN either. I was at a SD gun show where they had them. Dang I wish we could have them. Talked to a Officer at the show who was in the process of getting one.
I must admit IF it was legal I have enough "kid" in me to want to mate a lower with 6 position stock to a @7" upper with supresser added. There is not a reason in world to have it for me. Getting to handle one ONCE (with fun switch)
Same as the MP-5SD. Always wanted one/but can't (and its too expensive even if I could)
I must admit IF it was legal I have enough "kid" in me to want to mate a lower with 6 position stock to a @7" upper with supresser added. There is not a reason in world to have it for me. Getting to handle one ONCE (with fun switch)
Same as the MP-5SD. Always wanted one/but can't (and its too expensive even if I could)
I feel sorry for you guys that live in states in which the government is too scared of its people to let them have suppressors. Honestly I can't see any practical reason. Why is less racket a bad thing?
Thanks for dispelling this myth for me guys.
Thanks for dispelling this myth for me guys.
KingTiger
Member
I agree with the earlier posts that they're trying to mimick subsonic loads.
I believe this phenomenon is known as free bore boast. The suppressor cools & delays the hot gasses escaping from the end of the muzzle and reduces the air turbulence affecting the bullet.
I believe this phenomenon is known as free bore boast. The suppressor cools & delays the hot gasses escaping from the end of the muzzle and reduces the air turbulence affecting the bullet.
LiquidTension
Member
If they're trying to mimic subsonic loads, why does the M4 still cycle in MW2? It has nothing to do with trying to be accurate. They're just leveling out the perks of various systems. You want the perk of not letting the enemy hear the shot? Well, you have to sacrifice power. You want to fire a more powerful .308 in a SCAR? No full auto for you, 3 round burst only. They are trying to fix a problem that the Quake series always had - it was a race to the weapons, skill was only a small part of the equation. Whoever got to the rocket launcher first had a distinct advantage.
The original question has been answered already, but I'll say that running a can on my guns tightens up my groups a little bit due to reduced recoil and blast.
The original question has been answered already, but I'll say that running a can on my guns tightens up my groups a little bit due to reduced recoil and blast.
Yep. alot of these games have to play around with characteristics to create a more level playing field between the different weapons. And since most people who play them have no clue about real weapons, the developers don't care that much about accuracy.
Of course, if your suppressor is screwed on at a slight angle, or not bored properly, it could lower the bullet's velocity or affect its trajectory.
I would say this not only depends on suppressor/no suppressor, but also barrel length and powder. If you fire low-powder rounds, adding a suppressor won't do very much, might even lower due to the extra friction from the length of it. But with higher-powder rounds (muzzle flash) the suppressor partially acts as a barrel extension, meaning you get a bit more push while the bullet's in the suppressor, which it wouldn't get in the open-air environment after the barrel without a suppressor.
Of course, if your suppressor is screwed on at a slight angle, or not bored properly, it could lower the bullet's velocity or affect its trajectory.
DoubleTapDrew
Member
I hate it when that happens! It's expensive.
sidibear
Member
Suppresors alter the frequency of the barrel by dampening the harmonics, thats why the point of impact changes.
The sounds waves in the barrel rise and fall and you want the bullet to leave the end of the barrel as the sound wave reaches its peak or trough, where its most stable. (This is why competition barrels are tuned to specific ammo and also explains how the Browning BOSS works).
By added a suppressor the rise and fall of the sound waves are shortened thus lessening the harmonics making the barrel more accurate.
Of course, I could be wrong.
The sounds waves in the barrel rise and fall and you want the bullet to leave the end of the barrel as the sound wave reaches its peak or trough, where its most stable. (This is why competition barrels are tuned to specific ammo and also explains how the Browning BOSS works).
By added a suppressor the rise and fall of the sound waves are shortened thus lessening the harmonics making the barrel more accurate.
Of course, I could be wrong.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Bullet velocity is detrmined by the pressure and the volume of the gasses that are accelerating it. Once the bullet exits the barrel, the accelerating force is removed, and it can't be pushed faster than it was moving at the instant that it broke free...unless the exiting gasses are maintained for a longer period of time and directed against the base of the bullet. So, a supressor would tend to increase rather than decrease velocity.
Whether or not it actually would is another question that can only be answered in theory, or by extensive testing with an accurate chronograph. Your Shooting Chrony isn't accurate or precise enough. Sorry.
BUT...Most supressors contain one or more wipes near the exit point. Wipes further decrease the volume of the exit gasses . Most wipes are elastic, and have a hole that's smaller than the bullet diameter and will expand as the bullet passes through...then shrink to the sub-caliber diameter to help contain the gas.
Since the bullet is subject to Newton's Laws of motion and conservation of momentum...it can't accelerate to a higher speed after the removal of the driving force, and can only decelerate due to outside forces...and because the wipes constitute an outside force and positively contain any meaningful gas volume...the supressor very likely does decrease velocity to some degree. Whether or not it's a signifigant amount is a matter for a test lab to determine.
Whether or not it actually would is another question that can only be answered in theory, or by extensive testing with an accurate chronograph. Your Shooting Chrony isn't accurate or precise enough. Sorry.
BUT...Most supressors contain one or more wipes near the exit point. Wipes further decrease the volume of the exit gasses . Most wipes are elastic, and have a hole that's smaller than the bullet diameter and will expand as the bullet passes through...then shrink to the sub-caliber diameter to help contain the gas.
Since the bullet is subject to Newton's Laws of motion and conservation of momentum...it can't accelerate to a higher speed after the removal of the driving force, and can only decelerate due to outside forces...and because the wipes constitute an outside force and positively contain any meaningful gas volume...the supressor very likely does decrease velocity to some degree. Whether or not it's a signifigant amount is a matter for a test lab to determine.
CleverNickname
Member
Not that many currently manufactured suppressors use wipes, though I have seen a couple of new-production small wet operation-only suppressors that use wipes. Baffles only is much much more common. And since a properly built and mounted suppressor that uses baffles won't have any contact between the suppressor and the bullet in flight, there's no velocity loss (in fact a slight gain from the previously mentioned free bore boost).
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Interesting. It's been several years since I've had a chance to look any new designs.
A friend and I designed one back in the 80s that didn't use wipes, and it was very efficient.
Free Bore Boost/Velocity Gain.
I think it would be more a matter of less velocity loss due to the gasses continuing to push rather than an actual increase over the unsupressed gun firing the same cartridge...assuming that all else is equal. The gasses are being bled off into baffles and expansion chambers as the bullet progresses through the tube. More slowly than a sudden escape into the air...but still prevented from adding any accelerative force. Like a tailwind that causes a bullet to strike higher on a target with a given zero. It doesn't add to the speed, but only helps to maintain what it had for a longer time.
I have like, 0 experience when it comes to silencers. Pretty much, the only thing I know about silencers that I didn't pick up from a Don Pendleton book, or a Tom Clancy book, is that they aren't supposed to be that hard to make if you have a tool and die.
but, my thoughts are. Even if they did lower ballistic preformance, it wouldn't matter. Ballistic preformance isn't the point. It really doesn't take much to mortally wound someone. Pretty much, any bullet can be lethal if you shoot someone above the knees and between the elbows. Provided they don't get immediate medical help. People have been killed by .177 pellet guns.
but, my thoughts are. Even if they did lower ballistic preformance, it wouldn't matter. Ballistic preformance isn't the point. It really doesn't take much to mortally wound someone. Pretty much, any bullet can be lethal if you shoot someone above the knees and between the elbows. Provided they don't get immediate medical help. People have been killed by .177 pellet guns.
Owen
Moderator Emeritus
AFAIK, no current military suppressor has wipes.
I've done quite a bit of chronograph testing with suppressed .300 WM. We typically see 10-20 fps average boost witht the KAC MK11 suppressor, shooting 190gr SMKs around 2950 fps..
I've done quite a bit of chronograph testing with suppressed .300 WM. We typically see 10-20 fps average boost witht the KAC MK11 suppressor, shooting 190gr SMKs around 2950 fps..
This has turned out to be a surprisingly thought provoking thread.
Is it true that the added weight of the suppressor can affect slide function?
By the way, does anyone have any diagrams on how to make a home-made suppressor. Just for reference of course.
Is it true that the added weight of the suppressor can affect slide function?
By the way, does anyone have any diagrams on how to make a home-made suppressor. Just for reference of course.
Shadow Man
Member
Short answer: no. It gets more complicated as you get into the specifics of firearm type, ammunition type, suppressor type, expected performance, etc.
I'm assuming you are referring to pistol suppressors? Again, short answer: no. Because the suppressor is threaded onto the end of the barrel, as long as you maintain a proper firing grip, the added weight should have no adverse effects upon the weapon.
WoofersInc
Member
Yes. Most pistol suppressors have a booster or Nielson device for this purpose. It is more of a problem on tilting barrel designs like the 1911 and such. Guns that have a fixed barrel don't need the booster.
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Look for posts by Ranb. He has posted up the designs of some of the ones he has made. If I recall, all of his are homemade suppressors.
Shadow Man
Member
WoofersInc...I forgot about 1911's. Thanks for the fix
There used to be this guy I used to shoot with. He calls me and says "I got a new toy for my AR." We meet at the usual cut-over. He has a new suppressor screwed on his rifle. He told me that he'd waited months to get the government permit/hurdles to bring it home.
Long story short...it did seem to quiet the gun a tad, but out at 200 yards (he was shooting down from a hilltop into a puddle) the rifle did shoot to the right a bit with the gizmo attached. Screw it off, it shot where he was aiming, with it on it always shot to the right. We didn't measure the variance, but I'd judge it was a gap of like 10'. Always to the right.
That was my first and last experience with one. The thing did not make the rifle "quiet" and it screwed with accuracy. Maybe he had a crappy one?
Long story short...it did seem to quiet the gun a tad, but out at 200 yards (he was shooting down from a hilltop into a puddle) the rifle did shoot to the right a bit with the gizmo attached. Screw it off, it shot where he was aiming, with it on it always shot to the right. We didn't measure the variance, but I'd judge it was a gap of like 10'. Always to the right.
That was my first and last experience with one. The thing did not make the rifle "quiet" and it screwed with accuracy. Maybe he had a crappy one?
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