Video Games- Do they Help or Hinder 2A?

[Sunray]

They're fantasy games. Nothing whatever to do with reality any more than Grand Theft-Auto is about safe driving.
"...able to use Call of Duty:Modern Warfare 2 as an aid...." Rubbish. That's like saying a flight simulator can teach you to fly. Have one that lets me dive bomb in a Lancaster. Buddy's Da, who was a CATP instructor, looked at me like I was nuts and said, "Why?" Told him, "Because it's a computer game and I can."
Anybody who thinks a computer game has anything whatever to do with reality is very confused about what is and is not real. They likely think everything they see on TV, in movies and cartoons is real too. Desparately in need of a mental health professional.

 

[Fleetwood_Captain]

Kind of like asking if Hollywood helps or hinders the 2nd amendment, don't you think?

After all, handguns that have twice their actual magazine capacity on film are about comparable to "pistol ammo" being usable in pistols that are actually different calibers. You gotta love how the PPK, Tokarev, UZI, FN P-90, and Ruger Redhawk all use the same ammo according to 007 Goldeneye on the N64.

 

[ArtP]

ArtP, you seem to have a very interesting situation. I have a friend whos brother is not disciplined and completely slacked through school and now he has a brighter future right now than my friend who tried in school and was respectful to his parents.

Yeah, I understand.

But honestly no one is too controlling on either of them, otherwise I would not be privy to him growing pot. Right? He invites me into his hotel room to see his weed (he's got six plants). I don't smoke the stuff myself but I love him with all my heart, so I visit and let him be who he is. I just ask him to get a prescript - this is California. Over and over I ask, because I don't want to see him with a felony. I tempt him by saying he can never have the Beretta 9 that I have offered him with a felony.

Guess who never lost a basketball game until sophmore high school (that's 8 years)? Guess? Guess who works at a coffee shop while in high school? Guess who gets perfect grades and has taken all the AP classes? Guess who is the home-coming queen? Guess who spoke at the graduation?

Guess who calls me when they're excited about something? It's my son, the so-called loser of the two.

I'm just ranting. If that's allowed still, thanks for letting me.

 

[ArtP]

Care to take a bet on Centipede? I'll whip some...

How 'bout defender? I love Defender.

 

[TNT in Round Rock]

if some of you are familiar with Penn and Teller and their show "Bull$hit !!" .. (apologies for the language but that IS the title of their show) - they have an episode about the evils of the video games and those bad bad guns. Pretty insightful and well done episode. Very pro 2A and RKBA

 

[Hatterasguy]

One of the reasons I got into guns, and part of what guides what I buy are the games I used to play when I was younger. Now I can own my favorite guns in the games and thats just cool. Or the shows I used to watch. I'm not above saying I want a 92FS because Revy used a pair in Black Lagoon.

I know a couple people who got interested in firearms because of games. I live in a pretty built up area so their isn't much hunting or exposure to firearms.

 

[FTSESQ]

they dont seem to know the difference between .50BMG, .50AE, and .50Beowulf), "assault rifles", "sniper rifles", and "hunting rifles"....

But other times I just go stare at the old mausers, and wonder if they feel my pain

Ha ha ha ha... Mauser felling your pain... You almost owed me a new keyboard sir.

Sounds like a lot of positive results here.

 

[heron]

I was growing up before transistors existed (remember vacuum tubes?) and we played violent games all the time, with toy guns if we had them, and/or sticks as pretend guns. We all killed each other hundreds of times over, but the next day, we'd just as likely be exploring on our bikes, swimming, or something totally different. Shooting games were just one of a variety of forms of play that we had, and it didn't seem to warp any of us into heinous criminals. On the other hand, it didn't teach us much about real guns, either.

 

[otcconan]

I can't speak to the negative effect of games, but I spent nearly 10 years playing Day of Defeat, a WW2 Half-Life mod, and my most recent encounter with a real M1 Carbine was most satisfactory. As in, I knew exactly how much elevation to dial in.

What a game can't prepare you for is the reality of recoil and wind. It can certainly teach you proper sighting and elevation.

Check out Kuma games for real-world situations set in the Half-Life 2 engine (read: you can re-enact Fallujah). I knew exactly how to use an AR after playing a little bit of that. Still, like I said, nothing is like the real thing, but we all used simulators in driver's ed before going out on the road with our instructors, right?

That said, a 3rd person game like GTA is not going to teach you squat about firearms usage. On the other hand, playing America's Army online....

 

[Roswell_Kid]

I have been in the computer industry since before the IBM PC. Over 25 years ago the first version of Microsoft´s Flight Simulator got me hooked on games/simulators. Since then I´ve spent a significant part of my career working with companies which design and sell high performance PCs and components with the express purpose of driving the most resource-intensive software - PC games.

Studies by "experts" notwithstanding, I have never seen any real evidence of a gamer being somehow desensitized to violence and bloodshed or somehow inspired to violent crime. However, like some of the posters above, there have been many instances of gamers who, otherwise ignorant of real world firearms, became curious enough to learn about them and perhaps have their own.

And not just guns - PC games like Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, Silent Hunter and many, many others have inspired further learning about the real world and about history in ways that the "progressive" politically correct classroom has not.

In my opinion (for all the 2 cents that it´s worth), the anti´s hate first person shooters because they can end up acting as an agent to remove ignorance. The claims of desensitizing are unsubstantiated ruse, more thought police mind-control-freak smoke and mirrors.

 

[Dokkalfar]

The problem with games like GTA is that they tend to glorify violence, crime, sex, etc. They don't really have any basis in fact or, I think, really offer any benefit to the player.

CoD, Clancy games, and ones like that do get people interested somewhat in firearms, but the games simply don't really communicate the actual experience. Some people might actually go out and try using an actual firearm because of those games (and may be disappointed by the availability of their oh-so-loved RPG or uzi).

Overall I think they're good for getting interest in the shooting sports and firearms, But for practicality they are pretty much worthless. Recoil is not a small controller vibrating in your hands.

 

[Justin]

They're fantasy games. Nothing whatever to do with reality any more than Grand Theft-Auto is about safe driving"...able to use Call of Duty:Modern Warfare 2 as an aid...." to fly. Have one that lets me dive bomb in a Lancaster. Buddy's Da, who was a CATP instructor, looked at me like was nuts and said, "Why?" Told him, "Because it's a computer game and I can." Anybody who thinks a computer game has anything whatever to do with reality is very confused about what is and is not real. They likely think everything they see on TV in movies and cartoons is real too. Desparately in need of a mental health professional

No one here is trying to claim that video games are an honest reflection of reality, so you can stop pummeling that straw man. Clearly there are some similarities here and there, but realism is always going to be counterbalanced by playability and fun. Doesn't matter if the game is Gran Turismo, Modern Warfare 2, or Guitar Hero.

However, that lack of realism in the name of fun doesn't mean that a video game can't be a good jumping off point for developing a real-world interest in car racing, firearms, or guitar playing.

As such, as gun owners we should be open and welcoming of any venue that could pique the interest of a newbie, and if someone's interest is a result of their having played video games it's no big deal. We should be willing to competently and politely correct them on the things that are wrong and bring them into the shooting culture because every time someone decides to venture into our world and buy their first gun, we become stronger.

 

[Gouranga]

Not sure if any of you ever played Midtown madness. It was a MS driving game I played like crazy as a teen. It involved tearing through cities with various cars, police chasing you, running down sidewalks, mailboxes, paper boxes, and just absolute mayhem. I used to actually mod my car so it was indestructible so I could wallop the cops and other drivers in ways that completely violated the laws of physics (in a fun way).

I am sorry to disappoint the psychologists but despite hundred of hours on that game, I have never run from a cop, driven down the sidewalk, deliberately run into other vehicles, of run mayhem down the streets trying to imitate the game.

I also play grand Theft Auto 2 a LOT. Never stolen a car, or shot anyone. I also come from a broken home. However, I also had a father who would have whopped me for even thinking about doing that crud for real. I had a sister who was a cop who would have taken into a cell and beat me silly (yeah getting beaten by your sister sounds embarrassing but you got to meet her first). The reason kids will repeat these games are generally (using WIDE generalities here), are going to happy because of bad parenting, mental imbalances, or just fluke tweaks in a persons morality. Blaming it on a game, is just flat out lame.

People are responsible for their own actions not video games.

 

[bgrav321]

I guess I sort of came the other way. I enjoy playing the entire COD franchise (save the most recent one) BECAUSE of my interest in history and firearms.

I've loved guns and military history my whole life. Having played the first installment of COD extensively in high school, the week after I turned 18 I bought my first Mosin Nagant 91/30. Then I got a Tokarev. Then a shotgun. Then a Lee Enfield. Then an AK-47. Not because of video games, I'd been shooting my whole life, but COD in particular was a chance to see some of the history I used to literally spend hours per day reading about played out in first person. No harm in it whatsoever. After my first rifle I started going on long backpacking trips in national forests with a few like minded friends and my brother, all carrying milsurp guns we'd grown up using in COD.

I might also add that I have many 'nerd' aquaintances who have never hiked more than 3 miles in their life , but when presented with a chance to shoot the guns from COD4, (mostly 92fs and AK), they realize how much cooler the real thing is and get into it. I know a nerd who is now a dedicated reloader because of playing America's Army. Just my .02

 

[Justin]

Gouranga, you make a good point. Responsibility rests with the individual. It's the power mongering idiots with poor impulse control and access to media airtime who manage to ruin it for everyone else.

Were this the 1990s, they'd be up in arms over hiphop. The 1980s, it'd be hard rock and heavy metal. The 1950s would have been comic books or Elvis. The 1800s they'd be upset about horror novels.

There's always a moral panic to be latched onto by those who are incapable of thinking rationally.

 

[bigalexe]

Games are fantasy: Playing Monopoly does not create great economists.

I think the root of the thread is a 2 pronged question.
1.) Does playing games positively, negatively, or negligently effect one's ability with a firearm.
2.) Does the image of firearms portrayed in video games consumed by the masses positively, negatively, or negligently effect views of firearms by the masses and henceforth the drive for firearm rights.

To answer the first question: I play FPS games quite a bit and have done so longer than I have been shooting guns. I do not believe a single bit that playing video games has helped me learn to shoot, I know that playing racing games has not improved my driving skills either. The only connection I have drawn between the two was that shooting trap in real life has made me a better gamer due to my ability to lead targets.

I do not think playing video games can really effect your shooting abilities any more than watching movies, or using other aids such as pictures. Basically you can't take an expert video gamer and expect them to be an expert sniper.

To answer the 2nd question: Firearms in many video games are portrayed similarly to movies except in a more interactive manner. Outside of the Call of Duty and Medal of Honor series of games there are many instances of what I like to call Magic Bullet Machines and instant-kill guns with no recoil.

I do not believe this helps the cause of Pro-2A groups because it perpetuates myths of firearms present in popular culture. As long as these falsehoods are perpetuated then the mass public without experience will continue to believe that shotguns can blow 3 foot wide holes in steel walls and that AR-15's can shoot 300 rounds without stopping.

 

[hso]

Yes

 

[Cap'n Jack Burntbeard]

Were this the 1990s, they'd be up in arms over hiphop. The 1980s, it'd be hard rock and heavy metal. The 1950s would have been comic books or Elvis. The 1800s they'd be upset about horror novels.

There's always a moral panic to be latched onto by those who are incapable of thinking rationally.

Rational thought is a rarity among us, the majority subscribes to a different line of thinking, it goes something like this: "when in danger or in doubt, run in circles, scream and shout".

 

[gunnutery]

I grew up playing video games from an Atari 2600 to the XBox and PS2. I've played plenty of violent games yet I am not a violent man. I saw the guns in the games as tools to help you win the game. I never thought of the game itself as a tool.

I'm sure there are some kids out there with violent tendancies already that could possibly view some games as "trainers." I agree that the parents need to try to be more in tune to what their kids are up to AND act accordingly.

It's just like our society to look to place blame on something other than the people causing violent crime. People need to take responsiblilty for their own actions. And people need to place blame directly on the person pulling the triggers or what have you.

 

[ny32182]

The answer to the original question is that games help, no question. Games are, these days often going to be the only exposure that many kids may get to "shooting firearms" in today's society. If games can spark an interest in a kid that leads to a desire to actually shoot some guns and become a gun owner, then great. That definitely happens... a LOT more often than the reverse of some kid playing a video game, and as a direct result deciding to become a flaming anti.

Moving on to some of the other topics discussed...

As far as the level of reality in games; all games can hope to be is an accurate simulation. That simulation has the potential to be very realistic, from the 3rd party perspective of playing a game. Example; Gran Turismo 5 is/will be the most accurate widely available sports car depiction ever created. The depiction of the cars' performance will be stunningly accurate. However, "driving" them through the controller will not teach you how to drive an actual car on a racetrack.

Same with guns; they could be accurately simulated in games... there is nothing up to the same level of reality as GT5 is to cars in the gun game world yet that I have seen, but they are getting better all the time. Some of the stuff in MW2 is very impressive compared to what was out there a few years ago. Even if the depiction of guns in games became perfect, it would not translate to actual skill building in shooting a firearm, because clicking a controller is not the same thing as shooting; I don't think anyone is saying it is.

And GTA is great fun; probably my favorite gaming franchise ever .... but can't really be billed as attempting to be an accurate simulation of anything. It is just good old fashioned fun.

 

[happygeek]

Call of Duty isn't meant to be ultra realistic. If it was, it'd more like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5tRNs2X5Q4

I don't know if FPSs help all that much, but I certainly don't think they hurt. For me personally, I probably would have bought a gun or two eventually, but the first firearm I ever bought was a 1911. Why? Call of Duty World at War. I later bought a M1 Garand and I plan on buying a Mosin in the not too distant future, and maybe a TT33 ...

Now if only a critical mass of gamers would start pushing for the repeal of that stupid 86 law so that we could all own real M4A1s ...

 

[Cap'n Jack Burntbeard]

Now if only a critical mass of gamers would start pushing for the repeal of that stupid 86 law so that we could all own real M4A1s ...

I like your kind of thinking, but if we could truly harness their power, one may as well go for the NFA '34.
As awesome as that would be, the chances of me seeing it are pretty slim.

 

[NinjaFeint]

Video games have helped my interest in many things, guns included. I still "dork out" at getting to run the drill course in modern warfare 2 with an ACR and a G18.

Video games didn't start my interest in games but they have helped nurture it.

 

[Justin]

One other point to ponder regarding this topic: more and more games aren't something you play on youe own or with a couple of friends. All of the major consoles now have inbuilt abilities to access the internet, and most games, including the first-person shooters have online components that allow players to not only snipe at each other, but talk with one another via Bluetooth headsets.

If that isn't a venue for piquing people's real-world interest in guns, I don't know what is.

 

[inSight-NEO]

In my opinion, they do neither.

Playing a "consumer based" game, no matter how realistic, generally does not go very far beyond "point and shoot." Hence, not much more useful than "whacking the mole." Trying to equate the use of guns within a game to those used in reality would be nonsense.

Military simulations...perhaps not so. But, we are not talking about such games here.

Frankly, I think games are games. Plain and simple. Separating reality from unreality is up to parental guidance...not the game developer.

The introduction to (virtual) guns (and, perhaps violence) is not necessarily the same as knowing how to effectively use a gun [in reality], why it is used or developing the desire to even use such an item. This, again, is up to parental guidance. Same thing goes for watching almost any film directed by the likes of Martin Scorsese, Quentin Tarentino and the Coen brothers..to name but a small few.

Games deal with unreality...fiction, no matter how "realistically" portrayed. The right to bear arms deals with long term tradition...reality...an established thing. Simply being "desensitized' to violence should not automatically assume that one will feel the need to grab a weapon and start raising hell.

Even as adults, we are constantly exposed/desensitized to violence. It is not just within games. It is found within print, on the computer screen, in the movie theater and the TV screen. The difference, again, between reality and unreality is the idea of real life consequences. In regards to children, this is learned by example and responsible parenting...plain and simple.

If games were ever truly used as a method of Second Amendment slander, then this would be a truly pathetic, desperate cause indeed.