Do you Carry chambered?

[Boba Fett]

Oh yeah...one more thing I forgot to add.

Ayoob is indeed a fan of the Israeli Method...FOR LOADING A FIREARM IN PREPARATION TO BE USED, NOT FOR A MISGUIDED MOVIE WESTERN SHOWDOWN.

Once again, I quote Ayoob himself as I am unable to channel him like Evela can:
http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob031207.html

If your pistol is a single action semiautomatic, and it is drop-safe, the best way to carry it is cocked and locked. That is, the hammer is cocked back and the thumb safety is engaged, with a round in the chamber. This is known also as “Condition One.” The “cocked” part scares police chiefs and a lot of new shooters, but the “locked” part comes into its own if an unauthorized person gets his hands on your gun. Unless he is intimately familiar with that pistol, it will take him a while to figure out where the safety is and how it works before he can make it go off.

You don’t want to carry a round in the chamber of any semi-automatic pistol that doesn’t have a firing pin lock. It’s not drop-safe. This includes the majority of .22 caliber semiautomatic pistols out there. Carry them with a full magazine and empty chamber, and activate the slide to chamber a round when it comes time to shoot. If that sounds too slow for self-defense, I agree with you. Do what I did and what every modern police department does for its troops, and equip yourself with a pistol that is drop-safe and therefore safe to carry with a cartridge in the firing chamber.

Did you catch that? Ayoob himself has said that carrying unchambered IS TOO SLOW FOR SELF-DEFENSE.

Moving on to where Ayoob actually discusses something about an Israeli Method...

When checking the chamber of a semi-automatic pistol, never do the trendy “pinch check” in which the thumb of the support hand hooks into the trigger guard and the index finger reaches under the muzzle to press back the slide. Putting your finger in such close proximity to the muzzle of a possibly-loaded gun is nothing short of dangerously stupid. One master shooter blew his index finger off at a pistol match doing exactly that with a light-triggered 1911 .45 automatic.

It came into fashion subsequently to grasp the front of the slide to press it back. This too is dangerous. Famed firearms instructor John Farnam recently reported the case of an unfortunate man who managed to blow not one but two fingers off while doing that. The gun industry aids and abets this practice by putting grasping grooves on the front as well as the rear of the slide on many models.

Take John Farnam’s advice, and mine. Always retract the slide of a semiautomatic pistol by using the grasping grooves located at the rear of the slide.

When operating an auto pistol’s slide, consider using the Israeli method instead of the American method. The American method, or “overhand,” has the palm of the support hand down on top of the slide with the thumb toward you. It feels good and strong, but unless done very carefully, it tends to pull the gun’s muzzle toward the weak hand side. Soon the pistol is pointing at your own forearm, or perhaps at the person next to you.


The Israeli method has also been called “the slingshot technique” because it mimics the movements you would use to operate a slingshot. The gun arm stays locked, pointing the handgun at the target or backstop, while the free hand grasps the slide with the thumb forward. Pushing forward with the gun hand while pulling back with the support hand—digging in your rear heel on the strong hand side and driving your body weight forward, as if delivering a hard punch—makes this technique actually stronger than the American style. My little girls were able to work full size Colt .45 automatics with this technique when they were eight-years-old. Perhaps more important, the body mechanics of the Israeli technique keep the muzzle downrange in a safe direction during the entire operation.

Now, I'm sure Evela will be along to try to claim victory, but again, Ayoob is not saying that you should practice an "Israeli Draw," he is saying that to put a round in the chamber, the Israeli Method is better than the American Method.

 

[Boba Fett]

Posted by Evela in post 278 above
Ayoob:

"In the Southeast, a jeweler decided to augment his alarm system and security cameras with a gun on his person. He chose a Walther PPK .380, carried with a round in the chamber and on-safe, and virtually never practiced shooting it. His own security cameras captured the chilling moment when he pulled his .380 on a robber who had walked in with .38 revolver in-hand. In the chilling video-tape, the jeweler can be seen to whip out the little auto, point it at the gunman, and pull the trigger repeatedly. The pistol does not discharge. The gunman is then seen to extend his arm toward the jeweler and pump him full of lead with the revolver. The jeweler falls and the robber flees.

The jeweler survived to admit he had forgotten to release his thumb safety. When asked gently by an interviewer if he had ever practiced with his gun, the jeweler replied indignantly and defensively, "Hey, I'm not Rambo!" He blamed the gun for losing the upper hand his obvious courage had earned him, and reportedly now carries a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver."

I'm confused Evela. How does that quote from Ayoob prove that the Israeli Draw is better? If anything, it proves that anyone could forget to rack the slide, take the thumb safety off, or even drop the mag by accident in a stressful situation.

It does not prove that carrying unchambered and performing the "Israeli Draw" is a good idea, as Ayoob went on to explain.

Since the debate is not about forgetting to do something in a stressful situation and is about your claim that carrying unchambered and doing a quick draw and chamber move is best, I will again say that you like to post contradicting facts and you attempt to twist what people say to fit your lies.

 

[Frank Ettin]

Evela, of course the rest of us understand that the point of the Ayoob story you relate in post #278 is that nothing will make up for a lack of training and practice.

 

[The Wiry Irishman]

Are you guys aware that Massad Ayoob is a member here? I sent him a PM with a link to the thread, maybe he'll come and weigh in.

 

[conw]

That should be good for another 10 pages. Hopefully he'll say something very vague, just enough to keep the fire fueled.

Like "That one guy is right."

 

[Frank Ettin]

Are you guys aware that Massad Ayoob is a member here? I sent him a PM...

I am. I also sent him a PM.

 

[Frank Ettin]

BTW, I ask the moderators here to please not ban Evela nor close the thread until Mas has had a chance to contribute.

 

[mljdeckard]

I will be embarassed if he actually wastes time commenting on this.

 

[conw]

You're saying his time is more valuable than yours mljd?

 

[kwelz]

Haha I completely forgot about him being a member. Not that I would ask him to lower himself to the level of this thread. But I would love to see his comments.

 

[mljdeckard]

I truly hope it is.

 

[Frank Ettin]

I agree that in many ways his participation here would be a waste of his time. But on the other hand, Evela is putting out a lot of misinformation and misleading information, especially about Mas' views, that it might be good to be able to set the record straight.

 

[SniperStraz]

I will be embarassed if he actually wastes time commenting on this.

+1 on that

 

[conw]

I feel like we're betting on a horse.

 

[kwelz]

Is there a handicapper in the house?

 

[dom1104]

Not true for the common CCF carrier, who just wants "pretty good protection".

Am I the only one who doesnt want " pretty good protection?"


Obviously this guy is a wimp that is too scared by guns to carry with a round in the chamber, the whole israeli thing just makes it sound "cooler".

Its lame period.

man up and carry your gun like it was made to be carried.

my wife carries a CZ with the hammer decocked. I cant imagine anything safer.

all she has to do is pull the trigger.

 

[DougDubya]

"Yeah, but Charlie Miller carried his with the safety off, the hammer at half cock, and the grip safety pinned down by a length of rawhide wrapped around it... who was QUITE successful with the 1911 that way. But I wouldn't pin the grip safety."

A breath of fresh air, a thinking man.

This does not mean Charlie Miller carried in Condition 3. He carried in Condition 2. Which meant, all he needed to do was pull back the hammer.

It's not just the 1911, however. Chamber empty with a double action auto defeats the purpose of that first shot.

But this does raise an interesting fact.

From Texas Ranger to Hong Kong Police.

"Why yes, tomatoes are fruit. This raises an interesting fact. Octopi can use tools."

Wait... wut?

In Shanghai, Fairborne and Sykes - after much experience - came to the conclusion that (a) the safety should be pinned and (b) chamber empty. Shanghai was a very dangerous place, crowded and dangerous. Gunfights erupted quickly and often in close quarters.

They did this to keep the training for their thousands of Chinese policemen simple, as young, urban Chinese policemen in the early half of the 20th Century were as unfamiliar with firearms as most large police forces. Fairbairn (note proper spelling) and Sykes allowed dispensation for police officers who took the time to be proficient with firearms - like members of the Shanghai version of the Sweeney - to carry their firearms with a round in the chamber, and carried on-safe. For the 90% of the rest of the nearly five thousand lawmen who weren't dedicated and trained handgunners, and with the extremely small and useless thumb tab for a safety that was on their old Colt/Browning .380 Hammerless pistols, chamber empty was safest FOR THEM.

My point: a choice by talented and respected professionals, based on much research and experience. They brought their findings to our own police forces. And today, condition three remains a viable choice - and as I have said before - especially for inexperienced CCW carriers who want a viable, fast and safe alternative under extreme stress.

This has been obviated by double action, easy to use safety levers, and safe-action triggers. If you're stuck with a Colt 1903 or a Beretta 51, you'll NEED to use Condition Three. With modern, easy to use autos with good safety mechanisms, a round in the pipe is much safer and much quicker.

 

[DHJenkins]

Since evela is such a speed-draw expert, maybe he could post his latest IDPA or USPSA scores. Let's face it - when it comes to drawing & firing in the fastest time possible, it's a pretty accurate test.

Of course, I can't recall ever seeing or hearing about a single person using an israeli draw in any practical shooting competion, but I haven't been to every single one; has anyone else seen it?

Personally, I think we should all pity poor evela. I can't imagine being so afraid of the weapon I carry that I actually believed it would fire on it's own if it had a round in the chamber. Of course, if his main carry gun is a jennings or a raven, his fears might very well be valid.

 

[Larry Ashcraft]

Some folks worry about conserving energy. Me, I worry about saving bandwidth for worthwhile purposes--which this thread ain't no of.

Art