Do you crimp a 223/5.56 bullet with a cannelure in AR15

[Walkalong]

An improper crimp can indeed damage neck tension by buckling brass a hair. I read cfullgraf's post to mean that.

A good crimp, especially a roll crimp, into a good cannelure with some depth for the neck to turn in to, can help the bullet from moving in rough conditions, such as banging around in the mag or bouncing off of feed ramps. The military does it for a reason.

I crimp 55 Gr FMJ ammo for blasting and plinking. I do not crimp any other ammo for .223.

 

[Rule3]

For the non crimp crowd,

Lets take the common 55 gr Hornady with the cannelure (little bumpy line thing)

Does that by itself hold the bullet tight in the mouth of the case.??

If not, then isn't it there to be crimped??

This is the pressing question of the day

 

[stavman11]

I have never had any issue with any Loads i have done Moving in .223
I have gone thru over 4000 of the FMJ-BT with Canalure.... not one slippage at all

Rule3... my suggestions is Test it for yerself then you can determine if there is a difference or benefit for YOU

Load up 20 No Crimp
Load up 10 with slight Crimp
Load up 10 with Medium Crimp

Chrono and Document all shots... and see if you Notice any Differences...

I enjoy doing those kinds of testing.... makes a Range day even more Fun

oh and be sure ta let us know yer Findings

 

[stavman11]

and Side Note

when Loading .223 I have noticed the Bullet seating is always much tighter than hand loads... Thus the tension of the bullet to Case, without crimp, to me seems much better than Most Hand gun Loads...

Again thats how it seems to me anyways

 

[Walkalong]

Does that by itself hold the bullet tight in the mouth of the case.??

If not, then isn't it there to be crimped??

No.

Yes, but you don't have to.

 

[Rule3]

I have never had any issue with any Loads i have done Moving in .223
I have gone thru over 4000 of the FMJ-BT with Canalure.... not one slippage at all

Rule3... my suggestions is Test it for yerself then you can determine if there is a difference or benefit for YOU

Load up 20 No Crimp
Load up 10 with slight Crimp
Load up 10 with Medium Crimp

Chrono and Document all shots... and see if you Notice any Differences...

I enjoy doing those kinds of testing.... makes a Range day even more Fun

oh and be sure ta let us know yer Findings

I brought the chrongraph with me last range trip but it is still so damn hot here I lost interest. I like doing that testing also, more so with handguns but down here in the sub tropics it just sucks the life out of you. Once it cools off I will go forth and test. Combination of humidity and temp. Zone 10

 

[Comrade Mike]

I crimp for all my semi autos, this I like my 12 dollar "waste of money". Very easy to use in any caliber and puts a nice crimp on the bullet.

 

[JonB]

I am working on 1000 rounds of .223 right now (well at least another 100 as my bullets will run out), and I use the FCD on all of them. I go easy on it (ie follow the set up directions) and don't apply a stout crimp. I can do 100 rounds in a few minutes with my hand press, so there isn't much time savings to be had - especially when compared to the time it takes to prep the brass in the first place.

 

[forestswin]

Rule3... my suggestions is Test it for yerself then you can determine if there is a difference or benefit for YOU

................

Chrono and Document all shots... and see if you Notice any Differences...


oh and be sure ta let us know yer Findings

the poll hasn't quite established a clear winner - we need an answer

I think stavman's suggestion is excellent

I just picked up a set of .223 dies for my son's .223 and got plenty of cases

and inquiring minds want to know

pictures of the targets with & without crimps with your findings would be nice too

 

[Slamfire]

Crimping deforms the jacket, swages the lead core, moving the center of gravity of the bullet out of the axis of rotation. Crimping and the Lee Factory Crimp die are the surest way to ruin a good bullet.

So, I don't crimp unless I have to. Crimping makes sense for elephant guns, tube magazines, or Vulcan 20mm antiaircraft guns. I don't load for the Vulcan but crimping makes sense there as the ramming speeds are very high.

Suggestions that crimping improves accuracy is all bosh: the proponents can't shoot straight, are not winning any competitions. What ever results they have are not impressive and the differences are all explained by the "texas sharpshooter" fallacy.

 

[Ranger Roberts]

I am by no means an expert in reloading .223, so take my vote with a grain of salt, but I am in the "no" crowd. In my experience I have not noticed increased accuracy between crimped/not crimped.

 

[cfullgraf]

"texas sharpshooter" fallacy.

That's a term I have not heard before. Learn something every day.

 

[steve4102]

. I have never had any issue with any Loads i have done Moving in .223
I have gone thru over 4000 of the FMJ-BT with Canalure.... not one slippage at all

How would you know, unless you removed every round cycled through the action before firing and measured them !

 

[Rule3]

the poll hasn't quite established a clear winner - we need an answer

I think stavman's suggestion is excellent

I just picked up a set of .223 dies for my son's .223 and got plenty of cases

and inquiring minds want to know

pictures of the targets with & without crimps with your findings would be nice too

Well Forest as I know what an analytical mind you have, you are elected!!!

Just think of all the data, flow charts, graphs and measurements you can make!. I know you already have the brass sorted by headstamp and trimmed to the millimeter!

I'll even sen you a bag of these fine Winchester Bullets

With 68 votes it's pretty much a tie.

 

[moxie]

"So, I don't crimp unless I have to. Crimping makes sense for elephant guns, tube magazines, or Vulcan 20mm antiaircraft guns. I don't load for the Vulcan but crimping makes sense there as the ramming speeds are very high. "

Yes they are. I used to work on Vulcan M61A1 guns. (Also SUU-16s and 23s.) Hi speed stuff.

If you look closely at M193 and 855, etc. , they are lightly crimped. Almost unnoticeable. That is to preclude bullet jump in full auto guns primarily.

Otherwise, the only real need for crimp is heavy recoiling revolvers, again to prevent bullet jump. Good case neck tension takes care of the rest.

I'm with you. I don't crimp unless I have to.

 

[forestswin]

Well Forest as I know what an analytical mind you have, you are elected!!!

Just think of all the data, flow charts, graphs and measurements you can make!. I know you already have the brass sorted by headstamp and trimmed to the millimeter!

I'll even sen you a bag of these fine Winchester Bullets

With 68 votes it's pretty much a tie.

Now wait a minute Rule


Hey, it was stavmans suggestion, and its 20 degrees up here
If I were to do it - gonna have to wait for me to get a 223 and spring

in the mean-time, in my opinion
CRIMP WHEN ITS NEEDED and ignore the cannelure - AOL has to control

there you have your answer

No idea why some of these 223 bullets have a cannelure - for a different gun?? but from my reading, its really whether you have enough case neck tension, which is measured by - the bullet seating expands the case neck by 0.002" and 0.003" for semi-auto's - and that's getting into the case I.D., bullet O.D. and case neck thickness measurements and case neck expansion that might vary between bullets.

see this article
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
crimp discussion is near the bottom

 

[Hondo 60]

"The AR-15" by Patrick Sweeney has a crimp test chart.
In it he tested non-crimped vs lightly crimped.
The lightly crimped were more accurate & had a higher velocity.

In my own tests i've found this to be true for my AR as well.

But be aware, each gun is different so YMMV

 

[steve4102]

"The AR-15" by Patrick Sweeney has a crimp test chart.
In it he tested non-crimped vs lightly crimped.
The lightly crimped were more accurate & had a higher velocity.

In my own tests i've found this to be true for my AR as well.

But be aware, each gun is different so YMMV

I would really like to see this article.

I have been saying this for a long time. I have dozens of test targets from 223/AR to 300WSM/BAR and crimping has almost always increased accuracy.

There is even a test here using Bolt action were crimping showed improvements in accuracy.

http://www.accuratereloading.com/crimping.html

Remember the old saying,
"Don't Knock It Till You Try It"

 

[stavman11]

How would you know, unless you removed every round cycled through the action before firing and measured them !

LOL

Good Point...

Guess i was ASSUMING such results....LOL

 

[stavman11]

Now wait a minute Rule


Hey, it was stavmans suggestion, and its 20 degrees up here
If I were to do it - gonna have to wait for me to get a 223 and spring

in the mean-time, in my opinion
CRIMP WHEN ITS NEEDED and ignore the cannelure - AOL has to control

there you have your answer

No idea why some of these 223 bullets have a cannelure - for a different gun?? but from my reading, its really whether you have enough case neck tension, which is measured by - the bullet seating expands the case neck by 0.002" and 0.003" for semi-auto's - and that's getting into the case I.D., bullet O.D. and case neck thickness measurements and case neck expansion that might vary between bullets.

see this article
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
crimp discussion is near the bottom

Hmmmmm

weather is GREAT this week in Arizona... But not sure If i got Time right Now

Planning on going Tomorrow.... So If I get some time today to load up a few Crimped Loads i will

But dont hold yer breath on it Yet

 

[M1key]

another beat-to-death topic


I lightly crimp all 223 for ARs, 308 for FALs, Saigas, 7.62x39 for AKs, Mini-30s, ARs

Black Hills crimps ALL their 223 match (I have several types and loads) and no one complains about the accuracy.

I absolutely crimp 357Sig for my Glocks to eliminate bullet set-back and notice more consistent groups.

Next time you have opportunity, check how many ammo manufacturers crimp even their hunting ammo.

M

 

[Walkalong]

If a load needs to be crimped for better accuracy, IMHO, the load hasn't been tweaked correctly yet. JMO of course.

A crimp can help start pressures and a better powder burn, but there are others ways to do this as well.

 

[stavman11]

Managed to Crimp a few For tomorrow... and only Crushed 3 cases.... The difference in Case Length of .013 makes a HUGE Difference another reason I dont Crimp .223

Ill try and test em Tomorrow if I do head to the Desert Range....

I also checked the Factory Ammo I have as M1key Suggested
Both PMC , std and TACT Zombie - Crimped
Fed American Eagle - no Crimp
HPR Clean 75gr BTHP Match - No Crimp
Independance israili - looks like a Wierd Crimp
Herters Steel case - No Crimp

so even the Match Factory ammo dosent have a Crimp

So here are the pics of my Crimped Loads
CFE223 with 27.1gr with 55gr Z-Max
Left load No Crimp


So ill see how it Goes Tomorrow

 

[SWThomas]

steve4102
How would you know, unless you removed every round cycled through the action before firing and measured them !

I was thinking the same thing.

 

[Walkalong]

The difference in Case Length of .013 makes a HUGE Difference

Yep, for a roll crimp you need consistent case lengths and cannelures. Another reason the Winchesters are a bad choice if you intend to crimp.

Those look good. I bought some of those because they were cheaper than the V Max.