Do you guys ever do this?

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STAGE 2

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This is pretty much my standard operating procedure when it comes to car lots and salesmen, but I find myself doing this more and more when I go into gun shops.

I walk in, usually with a specific thing I'm looking for, a guy behind the counter walks up to see what I want, and I'll ask to see something in the case. With gun in hand, I will then ask him a question... a question that isn't overly technical, but not obvious either, but also a question that I already know the answer to. Yes I'm basically quizzing him to find out whether he knows anything or not.

7 times out of 10 I'll get a wrong answer. I don't know whether its because he's busy and I don't look like I'm there to buy, or because he doesn't know, but what I do find surprising is that I have yet to hear, "I don't know, let me ask/look it up/call the manufacturer."

I'm really nit picky with cars, mainly because I have 0 confidence in the intelligence of car salesmen, but I guess I kind of expect more out of gun dealers.

For example, today I walked into a local shop and they has a NIB Beretta M9 on the shelf for dirt cheap. The guy behind the counter had no idea that it was anything other than a regular 92. Are there huge differences, no, but the markings, dustcover and backstrap are different enough that a normal person should be able to tell the difference.

Needless to say I walked out with a new M9 for the price of a plain jane 92.

Anybody else or am I just a nut that expects too much.
 
Well, that depends.
Personally, I don't care if he knows which way is up. If I am talking to him, it is because I saw something that I want to buy. 9 out of 10 guns I buy, I don't even handle. I just tell them I want it.
If it was a machine that could run the cash register, that is fine with me.



I have to say that most of the gun shops I go into, I know the people in there. I go to gun stores all the time, so I DO talk to them. But, if I want to buy something, I just tell them I want it. Bought two guns in the last week. Didn't look at either of them other than when they were in the case. Actually, one of them was a P1 in a German police holster and I never saw it out of the holster until the paperwork was done and I had paid him.
 
Many gun shop counter employees are not firearm enthusiasts .

It's not easy to make a living with most gun shops as there is a lot of competition and narrow margins on a lot of the new products.

Sales persons are not paid much and this tends to bring people of less experience into the equation. There of course are a lot of exceptions also, and many are very knowledgable , but no one knows everything .

As long as you know what your doing with the purchase there is no problem - as a matter of fact there can be benifits , as you pointed out .
 
Actually, one of them was a P1 in a German police holster and I never saw it out of the holster until the paperwork was done and I had paid him.
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Not sure I'd do it like that... :scrutiny:
I guess you trust the guys to not sell you something faulty or full of rust though.
 
No I don't do that.

I do think one of the big issues in our passion of guns/shooting is that there are a higher (?) or at least a sizeable percentage of "know it alls". Maybe I'm too sick of the Counterstrike-dweebs that think they understand but it certainly seems that way.

My theory is that to the uninitiated, there is a lot of machismo and ego associated with firearms. The people that are inclined to be know-it-alls for anything are more inclined when it comes to guns. It is an intricate sport/hobby and they don't want to appear wrong. Plus, many associate guns with power...mix all those elements together and I think you get a disporportionate number of people in the know-it-all category.

My opinion.
 
"Not sure I'd do it like that... "

Over the years I have pis.... ah, wasted a lot of money on guns and could count the times I have been burned on one or two fingers.
 
I walk in, usually with a specific thing I'm looking for, a guy behind the counter walks up to see what I want, and I'll ask to see something in the case. With gun in hand, I will then ask him a question... a question that isn't overly technical, but not obvious either, but also a question that I already know the answer to. Yes I'm basically quizzing him to find out whether he knows anything or not.

That sir is a poor assuption about the knowledge base about people behind the counter of a gun store. The person's speciality may be on types of firearms for which you would not have a slightest idea or clue about. I personally do not care the difference between a M9, 92FS, 92G, or a 92F for which you care about. Can you tell the difference a fake Enfield Jungle Carbine and a real one. If not, please don't act all high and mightly.
 
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I've been thinking it over and I have to agree with Kenneth.
Shooting is a very broad hobby with a VERY broad assortment of weapons. Any 'one' model of weapon can have many different submodels and variants. You can't expect the guy who sells you things to know everything about everything...of course, he should know what's what in the store.
 
A gunshop dealer has so many firearms on hand that he couldn't, regardlesss of how gun knowledgable he is, know everything about every gun. I never fault someone for not knowing something but, like you, I am sometimes put off by people that think they do in fact know everything when they in fact don't.

I will admit that I too sometimes throw out "tester" questions to test the dealer's actual knowledge and to see if he claims to have knowledge that he doesn't. I do this especially if I find a deal that appears too good to be true. Is it that the guy doesn't know what good of a deal he actually has or does the deal look so good because there is a defect with the item?

As for the know-it-all that thinks he knows what he doesn't, sometimes this kind of person's ignorance plays out in your favor. For example, I had a salesmen tell me that barcode on a Sig P239 I was looking at was now standard on all Sigs and I could/should just wipe it off. He had no idea that what he had was a Sig that was actually used in the Depatment of Homeland Security's Testing and Evaluation program. Of course I immediately bought it for what was an average retail price for factory reconditioned Sig.
 
I do provide some sales people with the opportunity to fail...but usually if they are presenting me with something which i want, but they have priced to a level i consider ridiculous. the well worn series 70 that would be a good project gun that he is calling rare and collectable going for 1299.oo versus the 400 i would consider fair.

I do not presume to know all. I asked a nice guy at one shop about why a certain pattern 17 winchester made Enfield was priced at 1700.00? It was nice, nearly NIB for such a thing. It was the stamp on the stock that showed it had been accepted at some arsenal/armory in Utah by Elmer Kieth During the early days of WW2. I would never have known that, I have no idea how rare that stamp would be, but to own a rifle that has indelible proof that Saint Elmer handled and inspected and Passed as Good might be enough to pay that amount to someone.
 
I work retail at the moment actually, and one of my most used lines is "Well to be honest, I dont know but -insert name here- certainly does lets find him". I can build a relationship with a customer with my honesty, more than my store's prices.



I'd murder to work at a gunshop, thats my dream job as a college student.
 
Nope,i don't need to at the shop i
get most of my stuff from.I guess
i'am luckey that all of the staff
have been in the gun business for
quite a while.If by chance they
don't know they have no problem
finding out,these guys aren't in
the habit of trying to BS people.
 
I asked a nice guy at one shop about why a certain pattern 17 winchester made Enfield was priced at 1700.00? It was nice, nearly NIB for such a thing. It was the stamp on the stock that showed it had been accepted at some arsenal/armory in Utah by Elmer Kieth During the early days of WW2. I would never have known that, I have no idea how rare that stamp would be, but to own a rifle that has indelible proof that Saint Elmer handled and inspected and Passed as Good might be enough to pay that amount to someone.
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I would hope it was pristine - I have an average Eddystone with the cartouche (OGEK in a box - the box being very important, as there was another EK at Ogden) that I probably paid too much for at five hundred.
 
I think the test is a little unfair. Some us here may know everything about guns, but I for one certainly don't. I would probably fail your test. If you handed me, say, a Tikka T3 (just for example), I probably wouldn't even know how to remove the bolt. I don't know how it's action compares to, say, a Remington 700 BDL.

pattern 17 winchester made Enfield
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I have no idea why that is special.

People just don't know every specification about every gun. Most have special interests. I really don't even have any area of specialty at all, just a gradually growing general knowledge.
 
Not to cause problems, but I have to ask:

Aside from roll markings on the slide, what, specifically, are the difference between an M-9 and a M92FS?

I only ask because I owned a 92FS for about 5 years, and carried an M9 extensively for about 7, I'm pretty sure they're the same gun.

The 92FS is the most common 92 I've seen in the U.S., so at least stateside, it would qualify as the "plane jane 92.

Also, there are 92 versions that are somewhat more expensive than the M9/92FS.

If I'm going to lay out more than $100, I've usually done enough research that I expect to know more than the individual behind the counter. If I'm buying a gun or car, you can bet the research has been fairly comprehensive.

Hey, it's my money I'm spending, not theirs.
 
Interesting responses so far.

Kenneth, this has nothing to do about being high and mighty or demonstrating what I know to others. When the guy behind the counter gets the question wrong I simply nod and browse some more, him having no idea that I disapprove of his answer. This has to do with the fact that I have real legitimate questions and I want to deal with someone who has real answers, or the intellectual honesty to admit he doesn't know and will direct me to someone who does.

I should have probably clarified before, I'm not talking about knowledge of obscure or surplus rifles or handguns. I'm talking about mainstream, current production pistols and rifles. Its not too much to expect one who works at a gun shop to be able to tell me what calibers a beretta 92 comes in, or whether a XD has a magazine disconnect.

Answers like "I really dont know" or "I havent had a chance to check out this pistol yet" are perfectly acceptable. I'm just looking for honesty.

DPB, you are correct the roll marks are different. What I was referring to was the design change that came sometime in the early 2000's. New beretta 92's haev a slanted dustcover as well as a radiused backstrap. Its likely that your beretta and the M9 you carried were identical. Only in the last 3-4 years did they make these changes.
 
Stage 2, I bought my 92FS in 1999, so yes, it would have been before the changes.

I haven't looked at a commercial one in a while, are they selling them commercially with "M9" stamped on them? Also, do you have any idea why the changes on the commercial models?
 
"Its not too much to expect one who works at a gun shop to be able to tell me what calibers a beretta 92 comes in, or whether a XD has a magazine disconnect."

I don't work in a gun store, but I go to a least a few gun shops every month and have for most of my life. I am on the various internet gun forums daily. Sometimes for hours. I usually end up at least looking at the pictures in most gun magazines that come out monthly. I go to gun shows 3-4 times a year and have been attending gun shows since I was in grade school. I attend formal training as often as possible: usually at least 4-5 classes a year (attended a Glock Armor's class yesterday and am taking a two day "practical rifle" class today and tomorrow). I belong to two gun clubs and regularly attend as well as compete. I got my first handgun when I was 9 years old. By the time I was 21, I owned more than a half dozen. I personally own over 80 handguns right now.
I have no idea the answer to either one of those questions.
I know what a 1917 Enfield is, and own one, but the small details are not something I am familiar with.
I am not sure why you think a clerk in a gun store IS going to know absolutely everything there is to know about every single firearm they have in the store. I know this is going to get me in trouble, but I have to agree with the person that posted about being a know-it-all. Most of the people that do stuff like this are trying to boost their own ego while at the same time wasting a salesmans time. People wonder why people that work in retail stores are bitter. Imagine the jerks coming in and out all the time. It isn't bad enough that people come in and want to buy partial boxes of .22 ammo and want to have you buy their guns for twice what they are worth at full retail because they are broke and want to use you as a pawn shop. It isn't bad enough that your prices are never good enough and you can't stock every possible item to please every possible customer. But you also have people coming in and purposely screwing with you for their own amusement.
No wonder they are sometimes hard to deal with.
How would you like people coming into where ever you work and purposely screwing with you ?
I have worked at my job for 15 years and did something very similar in the same town for 7 years prior to that. People ask me questions that I don't know the answer to.
 
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And you do this because??

I personally meet many like you,but don't understand why you feel that you need to "out wit" people like us. I have thousands of guns,but don't claim to know everything-and learn something new every day. I'm sure I could ask you many questions that you would not have answers for-but why?? Does it make you feel good to make others feel less than you? I'm not slamming you personally here,I would just like to know the value of what you do at the gun stores or car lots :confused:

I have twelve employees between my two stores. I try to hire people that barely know much at all - just so they don't pretend to "know it all". People that I hired in the past that were "experts" broke many firearms to include expensive machine-guns because they thought they knew it all,or didn't feel they should ask how. I don't hire "gun experts" I hire clerks.

I'm not an expert - I'm a (RKI)
Jim
 
DPB, the "official" word from beretta on the changes is because they are trying to streamline production, so all frames are made on the same machines regardless of whether its a vertec model or a 92. There have been a few special runs of M9's but aside from those, everything else is a 92.

444 and Jim, I don't know what is getting lost in translation so let me try and spell it out. This isnt about knowledge, either mine or the guy behind the counter. Its about weeding out the people who are going to tell me that an SKS is great for 1000 yd target shooting or that the only gun really good enough for self defense is a desert eagle.

By analogy, these are the guys on the car lot that will tell you that a mazda miata is perfect for towing in the snow. Some do it because they are trying to make a sale, and some do it because they just dont know any better.

I don't know everything abut firearms and don't pretend to. However I don't think its ridiculous for me to expect someone who has chosen to make firearms his livelihood to have generally more knowledge than me.

That isnt even my point however. What I said at the beginning and what is completely satisfactory to me is an honest salesman. "An I don't know" or "let me find out" is worth as many points to me as a correct answer. Why? Because when I ask him the real questions I need answers to, I know that he will be able to help me, if not personally knowing the answer then pointing me in the right direction.
 
I do this with anything that costs a few hundred dollars or more, doesn't matter the product. I think that MORE people should do it. Not mind-numbingly difficult questions, but something that shows you know SOMETHING about the item.I have worked in retail for a whole lot of years now, and that is the thing that makes me madder than anything. It is called product knowledge. I REQUIRE all of my employees to know the basics of what we are selling. If they don't know, they need to ask. I have had to get rid of several employees who I spied on. They decided to feed the customer a line of BS instead of asking someone else about something. This has nothing to do with guns. It is just good customer service.
 
Technical knowledge of a product does not always equal customer service.

As a buyer, I would rather have a salesperson treat me like a preferred customer then try to impress me with their all-encompassing knowledge of every product in the store.

The worse salesperson to me is the one that tells me what I should buy instead of helping me make my own choice.

Here is an example. Years ago when I was starting out in this hobby, my knowledge of firearms was of course very limited. But even then, when I walked into a gun shop I still knew what I was looking to buy.

There was a shop back in my hometown in PA. Three times I attempted to buy a handgun there but never got out the door with one thanks to the overbearing and very opinionated sales people.

First time, I wanted to buy an AMT .22 mag semi-auto. The salesman told me I should buy a .22lr revolver. Not recommended to me, but told me what I should buy (in retrospect, I don't blame him for trying to get me away from the AMT).

The second time I came in to buy a Glock 17. The salesman told me I should buy the 10mm, not the 9mm. Once again, not a recommendation, but told me I was foolish to buy the 9mm. Left the store empty handed.

Third time I came in to buy a Berretta 92. This time I got the renowned .45 expert who actually laughed at me. He proceeded to give me his speech and "expert" knowledge on the Colt 1911 I why that is what I should buy. He may have been right, his knowledge may have been technically correct, but his attitude was nowhere close to good customer service. That was the last time went into that shop.

I left that store and drove almost an hour to another shop. Walked in and asked to see the Beretta. I was greeted with a smile and enthusiasm. The salesman let me handle the Beretta and talked to me about shooting in general. Probably trying to get a feel for my experience and tastes. He told me the Beretta would serve me well. His only concern was that I was able to get a proper grip on the handgun (due to it's size), which was not a problem. He let me know they carried spare mags, holsters and had various plinking and defensive ammo in 9mm. I left the store with the Beretta, 2 spare mags, and 4 boxes of ammo. I don't know how knowledgeable the salesman was, but he provided me with great customer service and that is all I wanted (and the 92). He earned my money. I made that hour drive to that shop many times to buy guns and accessories.

I will always prefer a sales person who tells me they do not know the answer but will help me get the information I need. That is customer service.
 
No, I'm not out "hunting boogers" at every turn. Every gun shop employee can't know everything about every gun. There are a few things I don't know about my business and I have been at it for 40 years.
All I ask is for people to be fair and friendly.
 
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