Do you have any need for a shotgun or is the carbine superior in your mind?
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armoredman
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I watched a highly skilled experienced firearms instructor demonstrate high speed firing with the Remington 870 at Qualification on Tuesday - he short stroked it twice during the 6 rounds. Not a condemnation of any kind, just an observation.
fanchisimo
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Like most "which gun" scenarios on here, it boils down to situation. If I could only have one, I would keep the carbine. If there were no restriction, the shotgun is king of indoors SD, not that the carbine can't, it just can't as well. If I am walking through the woods and an animal comes at me, I'd rather have the carbine to engage the charging animal reliably at a farther distance rather than once it gets inside 20m.
breakingcontact
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this is definitely a consideration. I do believe the pump is extremely reliable in slow/controlled, non-life threatening situations, but can see where under stress, the semi-auto may be superior.
A lot of good points above for both.
This argument is akin to 9mm versus 45, revolver versus semi-automatic, etc.
Like many others, I have both as self defense tools.
IMHO, the best tool to use depends on the situation, shot placement abilities, training, maintenance, and ammunition used which depends on the individual informed choices about expected situations that you should make as a gun owner.
Outside versus inside makes a difference because of blast noise, range, and risk of hitting something you don't want to hit such as a neighbor's house.
Penetration is an issue depending on ammunition
Carrying capacity for ammunition and ammunition availability are issues
Multi-use for hunting, SD is an issue.
Maintenance is an issue as semi's are a bit more picky about being maintained while pump shotguns tolerate disuse and neglect. Training is probably a bit easier for pump shotguns than AR or AK rifles but lack of strength and recoil tolerance favor the carbine.
IMHO what the military does or even what the police adopt should not necessarily be taken as gospel. Just look at the conflict over 5.56 versus .30 caliber rifles in the military or the replacement of 45's with 9mm.. Political considerations, logistics, training, etc. all make the choices made by these agencies somewhat sub-optimal for some situations.
Like in woodworking, there are a number of different ways to accomplish the task. What you should use are the tools that you have confidence in through your anticipation of the situations that you feel are most likely to happen to you.
For those seeking more information to make an informed choice, Chuck Farnam's book on Shotgun and Rifle Shooting tallies the score for each and tells you how to competently deploy and use both.
This argument is akin to 9mm versus 45, revolver versus semi-automatic, etc.
Like many others, I have both as self defense tools.
IMHO, the best tool to use depends on the situation, shot placement abilities, training, maintenance, and ammunition used which depends on the individual informed choices about expected situations that you should make as a gun owner.
Outside versus inside makes a difference because of blast noise, range, and risk of hitting something you don't want to hit such as a neighbor's house.
Penetration is an issue depending on ammunition
Carrying capacity for ammunition and ammunition availability are issues
Multi-use for hunting, SD is an issue.
Maintenance is an issue as semi's are a bit more picky about being maintained while pump shotguns tolerate disuse and neglect. Training is probably a bit easier for pump shotguns than AR or AK rifles but lack of strength and recoil tolerance favor the carbine.
IMHO what the military does or even what the police adopt should not necessarily be taken as gospel. Just look at the conflict over 5.56 versus .30 caliber rifles in the military or the replacement of 45's with 9mm.. Political considerations, logistics, training, etc. all make the choices made by these agencies somewhat sub-optimal for some situations.
Like in woodworking, there are a number of different ways to accomplish the task. What you should use are the tools that you have confidence in through your anticipation of the situations that you feel are most likely to happen to you.
For those seeking more information to make an informed choice, Chuck Farnam's book on Shotgun and Rifle Shooting tallies the score for each and tells you how to competently deploy and use both.
I just do not see that being the case based on my experience with carbine classes and shotgun classes. At the most basic level you have a loaded gun that one will pick up and use. Each requires operating the safety. Beyond that a pump requires more training to reliably use under stress. One has to manual work the action. A semi carbine you just shoot. If they are not loaded a carbine requires one to insert a mag and work the charging handle. A shotgun has various ways it could be "unloaded" (cruiser safe, cruiser ready, etc). A pump isn't as simple as always just working the slide. One may have to hit a little button, and that button is in different places on different guns. Loading the tube is not as easy as simply inserting a magazine. As we get into clearing malfunctions, ammo, management, etc I do not believe things necessarily swing in favor of the shotguns generally or pumps in particularly. As you go more advanced I truly believe a pump gun require more learning and practice to really know how to use it. At the pick up and shoot level, a semi carbine and semi shotgun are largely the same. A pump is more complicated than either. As has been eluded to above, if you go to a three gun match you will see folks having issues working their pump guns. And those are people who have more than a passing interest in guns and shoot more than most folks. It is also a situation where the stress level is more than casual range shooting, but less than (I would imagine) what is produced by an imminent lethal threat.
Not necessarily the case but often it is. If one is seriously concerned with this it is very easy to get a carbine that is still a very practical weapon and yet much smaller and lighter than a shotgun I would consider well suited to defensive use.
Actually you can get one that is much shorter with no active work other than selecting and buying such a gun. For example my AUG carbine (the 16" barreled version rather than the 20" rifle) is less than 29" with a flash hider. An FS2000 is a touch over 29" OAL with its flash hider. 18" coach guns tend to be around 34.5” OAL. A 18.5" 870 is around 38.5" OAL.
If we start taking about SBRs and SBS then it is very easy to have carbines that weigh 5.5 Lbs and are 29.5" OAL. One can have an AR like that very easily with a 10.5 barrel. The MP5, which I have some trigger time on weighs about 6 lbs and is probably 27-28" OAL. About as short as I'd care to go with a tube fed SBS is a 12" barrel. Shorter than that and you likely will have only 3 rounds in the tube as well as big fireballs. That is a gun that is still 32" or so long.
As to weight my lightest carbine, which is not an SBR, and is chambered in a serviceable caliber, weighs 4 Lbs unloaded, carries more than 30 rounds and is 29.5" OAL. While a shotgun offers notably better terminal ballistics, it is not going to be smaller or lighter and still be useful weapon.
It is true that in given cases shotguns may be both lighter and even smaller than carbines. However, the smallest and lightest usable carbines are smaller and lighter than the smallest and lightest usable shotguns. Furthermore the lighter those shotguns get they tend to have more felt recoil, slower followups etc.
Last time I checked the carbine universe consisted of a great many more weapons than the AR-15. In fact there are a great many carbines that do not even have pistol grips. What is the average shotgun? There are many many shotguns that have not only pistol grips but an 18.5" barrel and a mag tube full of shells out in front affecting the balance point. There is such much variation in shotguns that I'm not sure we can make meaningful comparisons without citing specific guns.
Girodin, they do make bullpup shotguns, although they are rarer and generally expensive. However, your "normal" carbine vs. shotgun debate is going to be something like an 18.5" R870 or M500 vs. a 16" AR-15 or AK. Just looked up a random AR, and (depending on stock length) you're looking at 32.5-36.5" OAL with 16" barrel, seems about common. M590 with a straight stock (pretty average shotgun) has an OAL of 39.5". Yeah, maybe you should compare Saiga vs. AK or M590 vs. M1A, but I'm pretty sure these are the "common" choices between carbine and shotgun.
my preference is for the carbine because it is more accurate, holds more, rounds, is useful to a longer range, and it has much less recoil allowing for faster follow-up shots.
that is all well and good untill you miss...then you have just missed 9 TIMES with a single pull of the trigger. that is 9 randomly flying lead balls that you are acountable for. with a carbine, you only miss once per trigger pull.
that is all well and good untill you miss...then you have just missed 9 TIMES with a single pull of the trigger. that is 9 randomly flying lead balls that you are acountable for. with a carbine, you only miss once per trigger pull.
Owen Sparks
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I have shot my share of combat shotgun matches and I have seen more malfunctions with pumps than with semi-autos. This is NOT because pumps are unreliable but because shooters under stress tend to short stroke them. The same would be true if we were using to pump action rifles. YOU are the weak link.
76shuvlinoff
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As far as HD goes I keep a stoked AR next to a stoked 870 next to a stoked .357 1894c.
All have a purpose.
All have a purpose.
MachIVshooter
Member
I wholeheartedly agree with this.
The shotgun is the only feasible option for bird hunting, and can be adapted into roles usually filled by rifles (though with limitations). Of course, no long gun is a good replacement for the handgun in it's role. You cannot comfortably and practically carry a shotgun or rifle concealed in everyday life.
For HD, the shotgun is still king. Much more powerful than the handgun, and without the devastation to your hearing that a rifle will cause. I actually prefer an AR for putting down a human threat, but I DO NOT want to fire off a 5.56mm carbine indoors without ear protection. That short barrel and 60K PSI cartridge in those confines will do instant, permanent, severe damage to your ears. Though still very loud indoors, the much lower pressure of the shotgun cartridge renders it much safer in this regard.
However, for any type of combat situation, the rifle or carbine still reign supreme. The shotgun has some limited usefulness here, but if it were the superior fighting weapon, our troops would not carry what they do.
1911 guy
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Quote:
I watched a highly skilled experienced firearms instructor demonstrate high speed firing with the Remington 870 at Qualification on Tuesday - he short stroked it twice during the 6 rounds.
Quite frankly, I'd question the "highly skilled" part. Maybe with some platforms, but sure not a shotgun. When we were required to do more shotgun training, one of the first things taught was "shuck it like you mean it". I *NEVER* saw a shortstroke. Slam it rearward, slam it forward. Simple. I saw user induced malfunctions with the M16 and M9, but not the Remington or Mossberg shotguns.
I watched a highly skilled experienced firearms instructor demonstrate high speed firing with the Remington 870 at Qualification on Tuesday - he short stroked it twice during the 6 rounds.
Quite frankly, I'd question the "highly skilled" part. Maybe with some platforms, but sure not a shotgun. When we were required to do more shotgun training, one of the first things taught was "shuck it like you mean it". I *NEVER* saw a shortstroke. Slam it rearward, slam it forward. Simple. I saw user induced malfunctions with the M16 and M9, but not the Remington or Mossberg shotguns.
justice06rr
Member
Being a rifle guy (AR15 freak actually), in my mind the rifle is always superior --but that is only a matter of opinion and preference.
A shotgun is an excellent weapon with multiple uses and excellent stopping power. It does have its limitations (capacity, range, rate of fire) so understand that and you will be fine.
I would not doubt that a shotgun will serve you just as well as a rifle; but for me I would probably always grab the rifle (AR15) first. YMMV.
A shotgun is an excellent weapon with multiple uses and excellent stopping power. It does have its limitations (capacity, range, rate of fire) so understand that and you will be fine.
I would not doubt that a shotgun will serve you just as well as a rifle; but for me I would probably always grab the rifle (AR15) first. YMMV.
swgunner
Member
In the Navy I trained on M14's topside, M500 and M9 below decks as they are easier to maneuver than the M14.
As a civilian I like the AR as it is short and with 75 gr TAP I like the ammo. I also like the M1 carbine, as does my mom, it is what she uses for home defense. I have also come to like the handling of the Beretta CX4.
I have as much trigger time on a 500 as I do a 14, so for me "short-stroking" is a problem cured by training many moons ago. The shotgun has its place as does the carbine, I have both, use both, trust both.
One big item in favor of the 500 is the tritium dot bead. You can't miss it. It is always on , doesn't require batteries and is point and shoot.
For my home however because of the layout of the corners the CX4 makes more sense than the 500 or AR.
As a civilian I like the AR as it is short and with 75 gr TAP I like the ammo. I also like the M1 carbine, as does my mom, it is what she uses for home defense. I have also come to like the handling of the Beretta CX4.
I have as much trigger time on a 500 as I do a 14, so for me "short-stroking" is a problem cured by training many moons ago. The shotgun has its place as does the carbine, I have both, use both, trust both.
One big item in favor of the 500 is the tritium dot bead. You can't miss it. It is always on , doesn't require batteries and is point and shoot.
For my home however because of the layout of the corners the CX4 makes more sense than the 500 or AR.
I am not aware of any that are proven and free of quality issues. The kel tec is, well a kel tec, and I have seen a great number of reports of problems given the number of guns they have released. The other new to the field ones, such as the SRM Arms 1216, are all unproven guns as well. The SRM Arms 1216 is also not even that small with an OAL of 32-34" (I've seen various lengths listed). The KSG for all its issues is at least short The mossberg pump bullpup is IMHO junk, and I do not believe it is in current production anyways. The kits to convert non bullpup guns to that configuration leave a gun with a lot to be desired too. But yes, bullpup shotguns do exist. I also did not account for PGO shotguns either. I hardly dare state the reason I didn't lest this thread spin into that trite debate. You will note my statement in my earlier post was "he smallest and lightest usable carbines are smaller and lighter than the smallest and lightest usable shotguns." That statement, although perhaps not as clearly as it might have been, was meant to account for PGO guns, and the bullpup shotguns I am aware of.
For real short shotguns, I actually really like the box fed SBS versions of the saiga and the MKA 1919. I don't mind a 12" or so tube fed gun but you only have 4(+1) generally.
Yeah, I tried a Saiga and realized I wouldn't get much capacity in it without a giant box, so I decided I'd stick with tube-fed 18.5" guns with 6-7 round capacity (depending on which brand I use). I do plan on getting an AR, and probably only using 20-round magazines in it, but that's still a lot more capacity than I'd get comfortably into a shotgun, be it box or tube-fed.
JohnBiltz
Member
I've been a life long time pump shotgun for home defense. When I bought my first gun it was a pump. When I lost all my guns in a divorce, I again first bought a shotgun. Lately I've come around to the AR side of things. The key fact for me when just talking platforms is ARs just don't over penetrate walls like pistols or shotguns. I recently bought an AR that is going to replace my Mossberg 500 once I get some more rounds through it and verify some magazines. I figure another week or two. My main reason is me more than the guns. I've aged into late middle age and I just don't shoot shotguns much anymore. An AR is just easier and more pleasant to shoot and that translates into more time on the guns. I'm also a twenty year Infantry guy so I know ARs.
Onward Allusion
Member
Man, this almost comes down to the "if you only had one. . ." eternal debate. If I could only have one long-gun, it would have to be a shotgun. So, one can extrapolate from that logic that I would also agree that IN GENERAL a shotgun (12 ga) is better than a carbine. With that said, there are a lot of situations where I would prefer a carbine or handgun to a shotgun.
Harley Rider 55
Member
I live in the suburbs and a shotgun is the most valuable defense tool for me. If I lived on a ranch or farm, where I might need to make 100 yard shots, I would prefer a carbine.
That said, I'm prepared to move ANYWHERE because I have the appropriate tools.
That said, I'm prepared to move ANYWHERE because I have the appropriate tools.
Infidel4life11
Member
I've always had a shotgun in the house, behind the bedroom door or just inside the closet. However my AR is next to my bed as is my pistol, both with weapon mounted lights. Why: Pistol and AR are guns I use daily. I train with the Pistol and AR more, they are easier to shoot accurately IMO. My shotgun as fallen to a last resort.
You know what, though, here's my opinion:
Mindset > Training > Ammo Selection > Platform Selection. It is much better to be prepared to defend yourself and have an appropriate self defense load (such as: JHPs in a pistol, buckshot in a shotgun) than your platform choice.
That said, if you're down to platform selection, always fun to bicker about what's best.
Mindset > Training > Ammo Selection > Platform Selection. It is much better to be prepared to defend yourself and have an appropriate self defense load (such as: JHPs in a pistol, buckshot in a shotgun) than your platform choice.
That said, if you're down to platform selection, always fun to bicker about what's best.
Chemistry Guy
Member
I prefer the shotgun because that is what I am most comfortable with. I enjoy skeet, trap, and sporting clays, and I am very comfortable loading, unloading, pointing and shooting a shotgun. I don't have much experience shooting at moving targets with a carbine, and outside of a dedicated training course I don't see many ways that I would get that experience.
Occasionally I will call for a bird with an empty chamber and the safety on with a pump or autoloader, or with an open action on a double, so I have practice working the gun quickly while under some pressure. Because my shotguns are fitted for me, I barely even need to use the bead to point accurately.
In order to use the sights on my carbines the stocks are a bit shorter than what "fits" for a shotgun. As a result, it takes my eyes longer to find a target than with a shotgun. I am sure training could equalize the two a bit, but I enjoy clay sports so much I guess I'd rather stick with the scattergun for the near future.
Occasionally I will call for a bird with an empty chamber and the safety on with a pump or autoloader, or with an open action on a double, so I have practice working the gun quickly while under some pressure. Because my shotguns are fitted for me, I barely even need to use the bead to point accurately.
In order to use the sights on my carbines the stocks are a bit shorter than what "fits" for a shotgun. As a result, it takes my eyes longer to find a target than with a shotgun. I am sure training could equalize the two a bit, but I enjoy clay sports so much I guess I'd rather stick with the scattergun for the near future.
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