Bob, to clarify my first post to this thread I really don't carry my IDPA/IPSC guns but usually keep them loaded in the range bag when traveling.the only one I really ever plan to carry is the 44 special 240 rainier and I'm not going to start carrying them until I chrono them if they're not going close to 900fps I'll buy some more Gold dots (maybe the new Doubletap offering).so far the rainiers are the most accurate load I've used in my 3" taurus 1 jagged hole at 15 yards.
Do you reload your own SD ammo?
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massad ayoob
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Jerkface11, in Post #38 you said of me, "When asked he can't cite ONE case of someone losing a case due to handloads."
In Post #39, I reminded you of a case in which an armed citizen served time on a Manslaughter conviction because, his lawyers agreed, he had loaded his home defense gun with handloads instead of factory. (When an issue of suicide versus murder came up with that gun, as described exhaustively in a previous thread, the Court refused to accept his word or his records as to what the gun was loaded with, and gunshot residue testing that could have proven his innocence was not allowed to go before the triers of the facts.)
In Post # 40, you change your standards and say, "The last thread I saw you post about this on, you couldn't cite a case where a good shoot led to conviction due to the use of handloads."
Well, Jerkface, in the case mentioned above, a citizen who almost certainly did NOT shoot was convicted, primarily because he didn't have factory ammo that would allow court-approved gunshot residue testing. You also overlook mention in the previous thread of a case in which a cop with handloads was tried, largely on the basis of the "regular ammo wasn't deadly enough for you" argument, and ultimately acquitted.
When you imply that only convictions count, it's a little like saying, "Aw, you don't need to take cover from opposing gunfire. That guy Ayoob cites who was wounded didn't die, after all." Being wounded is better than being killed, and going through the ordeal of trial to be acquitted is better than being convicted, but neither is a good thing. The fact is, handloads can get you into trouble, and it's been proven.
Neither you nor any other advocate of handloads for self-defense has yet been able to cite a case where a court DID take the defendant's word for what was in his handloads, and allow proper testing of same when gunshot residue as a determinant of distance became an issue at trial. It is for this reason primarily (and, secondarily, the "regular ammo wasn't deadly enough for you" argument) that causes me to strongly recommend against handloads for defensive use.
In Post #39, I reminded you of a case in which an armed citizen served time on a Manslaughter conviction because, his lawyers agreed, he had loaded his home defense gun with handloads instead of factory. (When an issue of suicide versus murder came up with that gun, as described exhaustively in a previous thread, the Court refused to accept his word or his records as to what the gun was loaded with, and gunshot residue testing that could have proven his innocence was not allowed to go before the triers of the facts.)
In Post # 40, you change your standards and say, "The last thread I saw you post about this on, you couldn't cite a case where a good shoot led to conviction due to the use of handloads."
Well, Jerkface, in the case mentioned above, a citizen who almost certainly did NOT shoot was convicted, primarily because he didn't have factory ammo that would allow court-approved gunshot residue testing. You also overlook mention in the previous thread of a case in which a cop with handloads was tried, largely on the basis of the "regular ammo wasn't deadly enough for you" argument, and ultimately acquitted.
When you imply that only convictions count, it's a little like saying, "Aw, you don't need to take cover from opposing gunfire. That guy Ayoob cites who was wounded didn't die, after all." Being wounded is better than being killed, and going through the ordeal of trial to be acquitted is better than being convicted, but neither is a good thing. The fact is, handloads can get you into trouble, and it's been proven.
Neither you nor any other advocate of handloads for self-defense has yet been able to cite a case where a court DID take the defendant's word for what was in his handloads, and allow proper testing of same when gunshot residue as a determinant of distance became an issue at trial. It is for this reason primarily (and, secondarily, the "regular ammo wasn't deadly enough for you" argument) that causes me to strongly recommend against handloads for defensive use.
zxcvbob
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Massad,
What about the difference between home-defense ammo versus carry ammo? (I tried to bring this up earlier) When I'm defending my home, I'm making a last stand. If I'm carrying a concealed weapon and get into a gunfight, a Mike Nifong type might say I was out looking for trouble so I could shoot somebody with my super-duper zombie-stomper handloads. Do you see the difference? Or is there no difference and I'm fooling myself?
I load .38 Specials to the same specs as factory ammo ("the FBI load", I think it's called) for home defense. I don't see how the fact that I loaded it myself has any bearing at all for home defense -- especially if I'm shooting it from a .357.
What about the difference between home-defense ammo versus carry ammo? (I tried to bring this up earlier) When I'm defending my home, I'm making a last stand. If I'm carrying a concealed weapon and get into a gunfight, a Mike Nifong type might say I was out looking for trouble so I could shoot somebody with my super-duper zombie-stomper handloads. Do you see the difference? Or is there no difference and I'm fooling myself?
I load .38 Specials to the same specs as factory ammo ("the FBI load", I think it's called) for home defense. I don't see how the fact that I loaded it myself has any bearing at all for home defense -- especially if I'm shooting it from a .357.
There have been many articles in the news lately about how police departments are having a hard time getting enough ammunition. As a good citizen, I reload instead of buying that scarce ammo and making things more difficult for our law enforcement people to do thier jobs.
The Bushmaster
Member
Whether Mr. Ayoob is correct or not really makes little difference as far as I'm concerned. Why push it...? Why give the prosecutor any edge he might think he has? Factory ammunition has proven to be quite dependable. The most important thing is whether whatever ammunition you are using functions 100% of the time in your particular carry gun. In all my years (I'll be 65 in Dec) of shooting and hunting I've only had one factory round that was bad and it was possibly a double charged .45 ACP (scared the snot out of me). I've been reloading for the last 20 years and also have not had a bad round...But for the sake of liability and litigation I'll use what the sheriff uses. Seems like the best way to go...
And Really folks...I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. Shoot what you want and have a ball!!!
And Really folks...I'm not sure what we're arguing about here. Shoot what you want and have a ball!!!
shadowalker
Member
The ammunition is used for the same thing whether you are at home or out and about, lethal force to protect yourself, your family, and perhaps another victim.
Whether at home or out and about lethal force is my last resort, my last stand.
StrikeEagle
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Bushmaster
This is exactly the point I was trying to make.
Very well said.
This is exactly the point I was trying to make.
Very well said.
jerkface11
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So which ammo company is it you own a stake in I forgot.
jerkface11
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I'd hardly call trying to scare people out of loading their own defensive ammo for 20 years or so reasonable.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
What if you use Speer .38 Special +P Brass, CCI primers and Speer Gold Dot bullets? Do you think it would pass as factory ammo?
None of this helps you in GUN SHOT RESIDUE tests now does it. If folks are that bent on using handloads for self defense, I would suggest you find out what powders are being used in your factory ammo that you are mimicking and roll out the same rounds for SD purposes. I believe there are several powders available to the handloader that are also used in factory SD offerings. I don't know what they area though, but I do recall reading of them here in THR over the years.
As for reliabilty, if you're that bent on it, you could extract the bullets and powder and check the flash holes personally, then reassemble.
From what I've gathered from this thread, the GSR tests are used to forensically verify the distances at which the ugly event occurred to be compared against the testimonies. Apparently our science types aren't savvy enough to do this with "other" powders not currently employed or placed in SD ammo. Rather, more realistcally, it's expensive testing you don't want to foot the bill for to bail your hide out of a sling when your dealing with a court case of this gravity.
ArchAngelCD
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I'm not "bent" on anything, it was only a question. 
Check post #20.
Check post #20.StrikeEagle
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I doubt it... and it certainly wouldn't pass after they just ask you where you got it... and they will.
In the aftermath of a shooting, that's a question that simply *must* be answered truthfully.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Um, nope. They can ask anything that want to ask, but you should not be speaking with the cops if you have been in a shooting. You should be speaking with your lawyer and your lawyer only when dealing with the cops.
If you are going to answer questions from the cops, then they ALL must be answered truthfully to the best of your knowledge, but you should not be speaking with the cops.
I use my own hand loads in my SD gun and have no intention of changing. I am using 185 grain Golden Saber JHP bullets with a middle of the road powder charge. They keep my little Para functioning perfectly so that is what I am going to use. I'll worry about answering for it if the time ever comes.
massad ayoob
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Alas, Don, I'm not sufficiently computer literate to post a link. However, a search under "handloads/self defense" should turn it up. I wanna say it was late 2005 but it might have been 2006.
best,
mas
best,
mas
Hawk
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Hawk
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Hopefully, not too much of a thread veer, but I'm curious as to whether concerns over "Why wasn’t regular ammunition deadly enough for you" type arguments being used by opposing counsel would cause some to stay away from some factory ammo.
I'll not mention specific brands, but I'm thinking of a firm that uses mall ninjas, lightning bolts and diamond plate in their advertising and trademarks such as "toothy face" and "air doom ninja exploding round of ultimate terrorist splattering giblets". Or something along those lines, anyway.
The GSR issues would be gone but I can picture the slide show of the company's web site leading to discomfort as it is played for a jury of one's peers.
Given the small market penetration of such things, I'd suspect there couldn't be any real world uses of eXXXtreme bullets of blowing things up, but I'd be interested in opinion and conjecture on the matter. Should rounds from firms employing "over the top" marketing be avoided in SD weapons?
I'll not mention specific brands, but I'm thinking of a firm that uses mall ninjas, lightning bolts and diamond plate in their advertising and trademarks such as "toothy face" and "air doom ninja exploding round of ultimate terrorist splattering giblets". Or something along those lines, anyway.
The GSR issues would be gone but I can picture the slide show of the company's web site leading to discomfort as it is played for a jury of one's peers.
Given the small market penetration of such things, I'd suspect there couldn't be any real world uses of eXXXtreme bullets of blowing things up, but I'd be interested in opinion and conjecture on the matter. Should rounds from firms employing "over the top" marketing be avoided in SD weapons?
Cosmoline
Member
If you do a search there's a HUGE thread on this issue where Mas himself came in to clarify his position. His concern involves real-life problems he's seen arise where it would have been useful for a defendant to be able to test exemplars for various things such as powder burn patterns at X distance and so on. If you have a case of handloads with scant data, they don't have the same level of reliability as a marked and numbered case from the factory using a known bulk powder batch at a known weight.
Whether or not this potential problem is sufficient to outweight the utility of using handloads is something you have to decide for yourself. If you do use handloads for SD, make sure you hand weigh each charge for the batch and have everything kept well recorded in a book so it can be used by experts if needed. Personally I do rig handloads for rifles if used in a home defense role because it allows me to control the variables, and because most factory rifle rounds are loaded for deeper penetration than I need for HD. For handguns though there's such a range of loads available in .357 and .44 for mine I really don't need to worry about it now.
The "extra deadly" business is complete hogwash. That doesn't mean it can't crop up in court if your judge is asleep, but like a lot of other nonsense that can crop up at trial it shouldn't be a major concern of yours now. If you spend time worrying about all the things that might come up to cause troubles at trial you'd never set foot out the house. Worry about when the line has been crossed into sufficient threat to justify deadly force. Worry A LOT about that. Don't worry so much about what ammo you're loaded with. That applies to these excessive "overpenetration" concerns as well. A lot of things are possible once you pull the trigger, but if your life depends on it don't hesitate or you'll stop worrying about the whole business.
A court that will allow such nonsense to come in about handloads would certainly allow it to come in about hollow points or even "too big" of a caliber. In that trial in AZ with the dog walker, the court apparently allowed the DA to yammer on about how horrible the 10mm handgun was. Using factory ammo gets you nothing in front of such a court. But as I said there are countless potentially prejudicial things you could worry about if you wanted to, from what clothes you're wearing when you shoot someone to how clean your house is when the cops take scene photos. Worry about the main legal principles and don't get hung up on all the potential evidentiary issues.
Whether or not this potential problem is sufficient to outweight the utility of using handloads is something you have to decide for yourself. If you do use handloads for SD, make sure you hand weigh each charge for the batch and have everything kept well recorded in a book so it can be used by experts if needed. Personally I do rig handloads for rifles if used in a home defense role because it allows me to control the variables, and because most factory rifle rounds are loaded for deeper penetration than I need for HD. For handguns though there's such a range of loads available in .357 and .44 for mine I really don't need to worry about it now.
The "extra deadly" business is complete hogwash. That doesn't mean it can't crop up in court if your judge is asleep, but like a lot of other nonsense that can crop up at trial it shouldn't be a major concern of yours now. If you spend time worrying about all the things that might come up to cause troubles at trial you'd never set foot out the house. Worry about when the line has been crossed into sufficient threat to justify deadly force. Worry A LOT about that. Don't worry so much about what ammo you're loaded with. That applies to these excessive "overpenetration" concerns as well. A lot of things are possible once you pull the trigger, but if your life depends on it don't hesitate or you'll stop worrying about the whole business.
A court that will allow such nonsense to come in about handloads would certainly allow it to come in about hollow points or even "too big" of a caliber. In that trial in AZ with the dog walker, the court apparently allowed the DA to yammer on about how horrible the 10mm handgun was. Using factory ammo gets you nothing in front of such a court. But as I said there are countless potentially prejudicial things you could worry about if you wanted to, from what clothes you're wearing when you shoot someone to how clean your house is when the cops take scene photos. Worry about the main legal principles and don't get hung up on all the potential evidentiary issues.
StrikeEagle
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I, for one wouldn't that 'ninja' ammo for just the reason you suggest. Nor would I use ammo with a particularly 'evil' name like, say... 'DeathBlitzTrauma' or some such.
As has been pointed out several times in this very interesting thread, normal, mainstream defense ammo is so good there just isn't any point.
massad ayoob
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Cosmo makes some points that all attending should pay attention to.
However, no matter how thoroughly and meticulously you document your handloads, it can still be expected go down the chute when the opposing attorney cries, "Your Honor, you can't allow this: the defendant literally MANUFACTURED THE EVIDENCE!"
Hawk, I agree with StrikeEagle that ammo advertised to mall ninjas won't do you any good in court. Besides, I've never seen any confirmed cases of anyone being shot with it -- no track record, ergo, not something to trust your life to.
Some earlier posters had it right: picking a factory load you're comfortable with, making sure it works in your gun, and then duplicating it as closely as possible for TRAINING reloads gives you the best of both worlds.
However, no matter how thoroughly and meticulously you document your handloads, it can still be expected go down the chute when the opposing attorney cries, "Your Honor, you can't allow this: the defendant literally MANUFACTURED THE EVIDENCE!"
Hawk, I agree with StrikeEagle that ammo advertised to mall ninjas won't do you any good in court. Besides, I've never seen any confirmed cases of anyone being shot with it -- no track record, ergo, not something to trust your life to.
Some earlier posters had it right: picking a factory load you're comfortable with, making sure it works in your gun, and then duplicating it as closely as possible for TRAINING reloads gives you the best of both worlds.
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