Do You Think BATFE Baits People On THR Or Other Forums?

[Phydeaux642]

First, let me say that I don't own a tinfoil hat. Now, the question.

I have recently decided to sell a handgun and I posted an ad in the "Handguns For Sale" section. A fellow contacted me and said he would be passing through my area from another state and said that he was interested in buying my gun and asked if I thought we could do business. I told him that while I didn't like all of the laws concerning firearms, I was going to abide by them and that I could only sell FTF to legal residents of my state. He said "Thanks" and that he wasn't aware of that law.

Later, I got to thinking "I wonder if BATFE ever tries to bait people on internet forums in situations like this?". Or, are they way too busy too fool with trivial little things like tripping someone up on a FTF sale.

 

[Gouranga]

They are a law enforcement agency so I would be extremely surprised if they did not do such things. Not sure how the rules are as far as entrapment and such with them but I would not be surprised one bit. Every board I am on that has a sell section has a warning about complying with state and federal laws for a reason.

I would add, follow that advice and you will not have to worry about it.

 

[finz50]

Almost guarantee it.....

 

[easyg]

If you were selling a suppressor or a fully automatic rifle, maybe.
But not for a handgun.

They're probably too busy monitoring the militia websites, survivalists websites, and "white separatist" websites.

 

[LHRGunslinger]

Great! Now if they weren't doing it last week they're gonna read this thread and be all "WHY DIDN'T WE THINK OF THIS FIRST?!"



PS: that was sarcasm.

 

[2RCO]

I think you'd find that all BATFE folks aren't evil and that most are pretty good folks rather than the evil gun grabbing crusaders that many would like to paint them.

That being said I really don't know of many law enforcement agencies that don't conduct stings from time to time.

 

[Dionysusigma]

Yes.

And it's not "I think so," it's "I have seen it first hand."

 

[llanite]

Certainly there are memories of BATFE informants soliciting illegal weapons modifications in Boundary County, Idaho. No reason to think it doesn't happen in other places too. Good job staying aware of the law.

 

[FIVETWOSEVEN]

They may be good people but they enforce stupid laws regarding our favorite hobby so yeah we don't like them.

 

[RONSERESURPLUS]

Hello all, RON L here

As In all aspects of Leo, their are good and bad players, the BATFE has thier share of Bad actors, ENOUGH Said! Trust no one and Live by the law while we still can, comes a time when we won't be able i'm betting and thats not a day I look forward to?


RON

 

[GRIZ22]

You need to understand that in sting operations the LEO has to prove that the defendant was predisposed to commit the crime. He needs to show that the defendant was inclined to commit the crime anyway even if they didn't respond to an offer from a LEO.

 

[Phydeaux642]

You need to understand that in sting operations the LEO has to prove that the defendant was predisposed to commit the crime.

Well, that's kind of what I'm asking. Will they put in the time on these forums looking for someone that says "The law be damned, I don't like the laws, so, I'm not abiding by them." I don't get the feeling that there a lot of those types of people here on THR, but maybe there are elsewhere.

 

[bushmaster1313]

If someone on a forum like this flaunted the law I would expect the authorities to take action.

For example, a resident of New Jersey bragging about carrying without a permit.

Targeting someone who rails in their posts against laws they think dumb or against the Constitution may be a violation of the First Amendment.

Someone who admits a crime on a public forum, however, is fair game.

 

[Gouranga]

Though just reading post would get them a ton. I have a dumb nephew who has skirted some laws and after getting out on parole he gets in a fight and brags about it on facebook, imagine his surprise when he finds out his PO reads his facebook profile (he was actually on of his friends).

So yeah I imagine they would not have to try to hard of they sat around on boards and just read what folks said. THR of course does not condone lawbreaking and the mods here have locked threads or threatened to IF someone begins to condone breaking any laws. However THR is not the only game in town and I am sure they get plenty of leads online. People are just dumb.

 

[Gottahaveone]

Been wondering that myself. I live in SC. Right after I joined this board I was talking to someone about a Mosin. I had someone else with a zero post count who represented himself as living in Atlanta PM me out of the clear blue offering a near perfect M-38 for a very reasonable price and who said they would be in Charlotte, NC the next week and wanted to meet me there for a FTF transaction.

I questioned the legality of that and he assured me it was OK. I read the BATFE rules myself and sent him a reply explaining that we couldn't do that but that there was a FFL about 10 miles south of Charlotte and we could meet there for the transaction and I'd pay for the paperwork. I even offered to buy dinner for his trouble. His response was to tell me that I was reading the rules wrong and that he'd meet me at the first exit inside the NC state line for the transaction. He was very insistent about us remaining in NC for the transaction.

I got a real funny vibe about the whole deal. While I really wanted that M-38, it wasn't worth the risk to me and I walked away. And I don't own any tinfoil hats, either

 

[Gouranga]

You did right Gottahaveone. Really. Better play it safe. Even if he is not a BATFE you end up with an illegally owned gun, which could be stolen, you don't know. That the guy was not willing to do the legit way, would make me nervous in itself. I mean you were willing to pay for paperwork and everything, his only risk was IF he could not legally have it, or if was afraid to have his name on paperwork.

I would have done the same thing. Better safe than sorry.

 

[cbrgator]

You need to understand that in sting operations the LEO has to prove that the defendant was predisposed to commit the crime. He needs to show that the defendant was inclined to commit the crime anyway even if they didn't respond to an offer from a LEO.

Well, that's kind of what I'm asking. Will they put in the time on these forums looking for someone that says "The law be damned, I don't like the laws, so, I'm not abiding by them." I don't get the feeling that there a lot of those types of people here on THR, but maybe there are elsewhere.

I think you guys are misleading people here as to the burden for entrapment. The burden is very low to prove predisposition. If an ATF agent contacts you and asks you to sell/buy a gun under circumstances you know are illegal, and you do so, that's enough to show predisposition.

Entrapment comes into play if you say no thanks over and over and over and they keep hounding you or coerce you. If they keep coming at you constantly until you give in, THEN that's entrapment. Anything less, you are guilty.

 

[dougw47]

The Batfe...

I worked at a gunshop near here, my ex-son in law, a drug addict an wife-beater, filled out a 4473 to buy a gun there on my day off...because he knew I would have thrown him out. The records were not apparently up to date because he had pled guilty domestic violence and had a court restraining order.

He was delayed, and the NICS people did not call back within the 3 days to deny him. He came back in on my next day off and was given the gun.

That next week, and agent from the BATFE called. I answered the phone and she asked about the transaction...when she gave me his name, I was totally astonished...pulled the papers, found that he had received the gun and gave her a lot of information about this fine young man that she did not have.

I told her where to find him and where he worked...she said they would find him and pick up the gun. A month later, she came to the shop and we talked. They had not taken any action as of that date, but she gave me her card, took my home phone number and told me that she would contact me and let me know the disposition of the case.

Six months later and the bum was still running around...so I called her. Imagine my surprise when she tells me that they had decided to drop the prosecution.

A convicted felon, lies on a 4473, buys a gun illegally...the BATFE has a slam dunk case...and they let him slide! All I could figure is the did not want to admit that NICS screwed up, decided so what if a another felon has a gun.

It must be nice to be able to decide which laws to sellectively enforce. If our paperwork had not been in order, with the name and brady number of the clerk that processed the call and form...they probably would have pulled our license.

I would not be a bit surprised if they don't have a crew watching these boards, with the specific intent of making criminals out of un-suspecting gun owners. I know for a fact they are not interest in catching criminals!

Be warned!

 

[Echo9]

The ATF does not bait people on THR and other forums of the kind.

Anyway, and this is just totally out of left field, do you happen to have any short barreled rifles? Sawed off shotguns maybe? What about armor piercing ammo? It's TOTALLY cool if you do. After all, I'm just another forum-goer.

Not a big deal, just wondering.

 

[Apex29]

"Do You Think BATFE Baits People On THR Or Other Forums?"

I know for a fact they've gone to our biggest gun shows here in Tulsa and tried to set up dealers with similar propositions.

"I'm from out of state but I can pay cash."

 

[LHRGunslinger]

I'd be calling each and everyone in this thread clinically paranoid (including myself) IF I didn't honestly believe that one or more LEO agencies (that may or may not have initials) would try pulling that crap.

 

[Zundfolge]

They're probably too busy monitoring the militia websites, survivalists websites, and "white separatist" websites.

Well according to this administration you just described THR


Honestly if the BATFE were trolling the forums looking for people to bust (or even entrap) I'm sure we'd have heard about raids already.

Or I'm an ATF agent trying to lull you into a false sense of security

 

[Arkansas Paul]

So that's what those black helecopters were about circling my house the other day.

 

[GRIZ22]

I think you guys are misleading people here as to the burden for entrapment. The burden is very low to prove predisposition. If an ATF agent contacts you and asks you to sell/buy a gun under circumstances you know are illegal, and you do so, that's enough to show predisposition.


Not misleading people. Under the circumstances you mention above someone who does something absolutely stupid deserves to get caught. Something like:

I know for a fact they've gone to our biggest gun shows here in Tulsa and tried to set up dealers with similar propositions.

"I'm from out of state but I can pay cash.

I wouldn't call that setting someone up. If the dealer says sure then he knows better.

Entrapment comes into play if you say no thanks over and over and over and they keep hounding you or coerce you. If they keep coming at you constantly until you give in, THEN that's entrapment. Anything less, you are guilty.

You're basically correct on this. Prosecutors go through great lengths to endure the entrapment defense can't be used. I've seen situations where the BG was allowed to leave with the money (selling stolen property or drugs) and come back and do another deal so he couldn't claim enptrapment.

It's not only the ATFE agent but US Attorneys have to take the case. i've never met either that had the time to troll on an intrenet forum for a case that had no jury appeal.

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

One could always just not commit crimes and then not have to worry about it...