I just had a weird thing happen, that I wasn't going to mention but since someone asked. I saw an AD for a Pistol I have been after, on another site, "a local site". I sent an email because it was the exact pistol I am looking to buy for $300.00 less than the going rate. The person then told me they were now out of state, after listing in my state. I said that wouldn't work for me for a couple reasons. The person the "being very old, sent me their out of state ID, "a pic that looked phony","washed out", for a new ID, Then said "don't worry" I have a C&R, I responded with, That's not legal it's a recent model,"the gun" the person assured me they do this all the time and have a "connection at a major shipper". I declined the pistol giving the reason that I don't want to pay first for a pistol and have it confiscated because of the procedure the person was eluding to. The picture of the gun was suspect because I can't see anyone placing a like new stainless pistol on a rough tile floor to shoot a photo also. It seemed too "pat" like they had a procedure and had done this before. I am curious as to what happens in this case if a person actualy ships you the gun, and you aren't familiar with the laws governing C&R licenses and you find a gun on your doorstep. What would actually happen? Would both parties be at fault? and how many people even know enough to realize this was not proper? After all she presented it as a "license" To me this was an ideal scenario for someone to take someones money and then say well "call the athoritys", the gun must have got lost, you would be screwed, if it wasn't the athoritys in the first place. And there was a sudden barrage of emails, each a little more bizzare that the one before. But some folks just do some strange things. I just felt bad vibes, and why someone would post in one state, then say they just moved, and all of a sudden have a C&R license from the new state, just made no sense. My wife said that ID looks phoney.How did she get it so fast if she lived here, when she posted it locally a week before, too obvious.
Do You Think BATFE Baits People On THR Or Other Forums?
- Thread starter Phydeaux642
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Phydeaux642
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gym, sounds to me like someone may have just been after some easy money leaving you a few dollars lighter and with no gun. Sounds like you did the right thing by walking away.
bushmaster1313
Member
At the PA and NY gun shows I have attended all sales must be through a dealer with a NICS check.
Best advice is to keep one's nose clean. Even if you don't agree with some anti-gun or merely inconvenient law, a felony conviction can really ruin your day.
Best advice is to keep one's nose clean. Even if you don't agree with some anti-gun or merely inconvenient law, a felony conviction can really ruin your day.
jim in Anchorage
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ALL sales?
bushmaster1313
Member
Non FFL to Non FFL not allowed at the shows even though I believe in PA in general long guns do not need to be through an FFL.
jim in Anchorage
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Wow. that was not the case in NY with long guns when I lived there. One more reason I live in Alaska.
T2K
Member
There's BATFE and there's BATFE "confidential informants" or CI's. CI's look for stuff then pitch it to their BATFE contacts to see if they want to pursue it as a case, the CI's get paid for it, it's their job. So, I think there are people using gun boards to trawl for illegal transactions but I think a lot of them are not actual BATFE employees.
William Queen's two books were enlightening on this subject, he was in the BATFE for many years.
William Queen's two books were enlightening on this subject, he was in the BATFE for many years.
Victor1Echo
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Judge a tree by its fruits my friend. The BATFE is an unAmerican organization (like the CIA). The whole organization is geared toword gun grabbing, not to mention killing. REMEBER WACCO, and never forget!!!
bushmaster1313
Member
If I was BATFE I would prowl the Forums vis automated computer searches just to cover my rear in the event some bad guy commits a crime and it turns out he could have been put away for a crime he advertised on a forum.
Giuliani cleaned up NYC by collaring everyone for any infraction in the high crime zones.
Giuliani cleaned up NYC by collaring everyone for any infraction in the high crime zones.
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22-rimfire
Member
Giuliani is not a friend of gun owners.
Sales of handguns in PA must be run through a FFL (except for limited cases of direct family) so a NICs check can be done and the firearm sale documented. PA has a firearm "registry" maintained by the State Police as I understand it.
Sales of handguns in PA must be run through a FFL (except for limited cases of direct family) so a NICs check can be done and the firearm sale documented. PA has a firearm "registry" maintained by the State Police as I understand it.
NoAlibi
Member
Been there - done that - 'nuff said. We have a right to change laws, but not to break them. Go with the status quo and get busy trying to make changes. Case in point: McDonald v. Chicago.
Quote:
I don't think NAZI sympathizer atfe agents are the rule.
What IS the "rule" and what would be an appropriate percentage of those who praise Nazi legislation in the BATFE?
And it's BATFE (formerly BATF), NOT "ATF" or "ATFE". Don't pander to their conceits.
There are in stances some whacko posts on this forum. There is bad everywhere not only in ATFE. What is an appropriate percentage of whackos and anarchists that post on gun forums?
How is leaving off the "B" pandering to their conceits? This ought to interesting.
I don't think NAZI sympathizer atfe agents are the rule.
What IS the "rule" and what would be an appropriate percentage of those who praise Nazi legislation in the BATFE?
And it's BATFE (formerly BATF), NOT "ATF" or "ATFE". Don't pander to their conceits.
There are in stances some whacko posts on this forum. There is bad everywhere not only in ATFE. What is an appropriate percentage of whackos and anarchists that post on gun forums?
How is leaving off the "B" pandering to their conceits? This ought to interesting.
Carl N. Brown
Member
The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives internally uses "ATF".
BATF was used by everybody (ATF, FBI, DOJ) in the early 1990s and sould be retained if quoting historical documents.
ATF is preferred. That way, when sin taxes are added for Sugary Sodas and Greasy Cheeseburgers, they don'y have to print new caps and jackets, they can keep the old "ATF" ones. It is not conceit, it is simple economics.
Acronyms ATFE and AFTE have both been used to reference Assn of Firearms and Tool Mark Examiners, and both ATF and AFTE would like to discourage anyone using ATFE to avoid confusion.
BATF was used by everybody (ATF, FBI, DOJ) in the early 1990s and sould be retained if quoting historical documents.
ATF is preferred. That way, when sin taxes are added for Sugary Sodas and Greasy Cheeseburgers, they don'y have to print new caps and jackets, they can keep the old "ATF" ones. It is not conceit, it is simple economics.
Acronyms ATFE and AFTE have both been used to reference Assn of Firearms and Tool Mark Examiners, and both ATF and AFTE would like to discourage anyone using ATFE to avoid confusion.
Mike OTDP
Member
I won't say that ATF would come on this board and bait people. But they are known to monitor them. It's a perfectly legitimate source of feedback.
Deanimator
Member
If the NRA or GOA either:
Made an OFFICIAL training video on how to lie under oath
or
Organized a WHITES ONLY social function out of their offices, on organization time, using organization resources, and with the invitations on organization letterhead,
I GUARANTEE you that either would be characterized as ***100%*** "whackos", down to the last member.
Dishonesty and systemic racism have been demonstrated to be organizational values in the BATF(E)... unless like that retired BATF agent in usenet, you'd like to insinuate (without forthrightly SAYING SO) that the Black BATF agents who sued and won a multi-million dollar settlement against the agency for a pattern of institutional racial discrimination and harassment were lying. Perhaps it was really "whackos" from internet gun forums who posted "****** hunting licenses" in the Oklahoma City BATF offices.
It's not their name. They want to pretend to be a real agency, like the FBI, CIA and DEA. They have had the lowest reputation of any Federal "law enforcement" agency since their creation, and that's not about to change any time soon, no matter how many letters they leave off their acronym. They can pretend to be something they're not and never will be. I have no duty to pander to that conceit.
"Do You Think BATFE Baits People On THR Or Other Forums?"
Thought experiment - you're a career federal employee, and you can either work hard out in the summer heat chasing smart dangerous criminals, or you can play on the internet.
Thought experiment - you're a career federal employee, and you can either work hard out in the summer heat chasing smart dangerous criminals, or you can play on the internet.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
I routinely say "ATF Agent" when describing one of their people. Not pandering or anything. It's just easier to say than a mouthful of the alphabet like BATF or BATFE...and everybody knows what I mean. The old bootleggers didn't say: "US Treasury Department Agents!" when a raid was in progress. They shouted: "Revenooers!!!" I take the same approach when naming one of my dogs, assuming that the dog hasn't already picked out its name for me. The name is better if it sorta rolls off the tongue. Calling the dog...or cussin' at the dog, as the case may be...just flows better.
And, no...I'm not equating ATF agents with dogs, even though for some people, that would be to elevate their status...most dogs being better folks than many people.
On topic...It's more likely that a bait attempt will come from an informant than an actual agent. The CI does the footwork, and the agent gets the glory for the bust...if one is made at all. Most of them won't waste their time on a single private sale. If...OTOH...he can get tied into a guy who is engaged in a little off-screen business enterprise...he'll be all over it. Not to suggest that an agent won't take a target of opportunity if one presents itself. Just that he won't spend a lot of time investigating and setting you up for one transaction unless your name has popped up on his radar a few times.
And, no...I'm not equating ATF agents with dogs, even though for some people, that would be to elevate their status...most dogs being better folks than many people.
On topic...It's more likely that a bait attempt will come from an informant than an actual agent. The CI does the footwork, and the agent gets the glory for the bust...if one is made at all. Most of them won't waste their time on a single private sale. If...OTOH...he can get tied into a guy who is engaged in a little off-screen business enterprise...he'll be all over it. Not to suggest that an agent won't take a target of opportunity if one presents itself. Just that he won't spend a lot of time investigating and setting you up for one transaction unless your name has popped up on his radar a few times.
Doggy Daddy
Member
Pretty much the same reason that I refer to them as "BATFEces". It rolls off the tongue (ick!) and can't be called "pandering". And, no, I can't take credit for that. I stole it from someone else. I'd love to give them the credit, if I could only remember who it was...
DD
BATF was used by everybody (ATF, FBI, DOJ) in the early 1990s and sould be retained if quoting historical documents
I spent over 30 years in law enforcement (in NE, SW, SE, and West Coast starting in the early 70s until about 5 years ago and have always used ATF and everyone I encountered used ATF.
ATF is preferred.
Thanx for the direction on this Carl. I can see they even refer to themelves as ATF on their website.
you'd like to insinuate (without forthrightly SAYING SO) that the Black BATF agents who sued and won a multi-million dollar settlement against the agency
If anyone is insinuating anything deanimator it is you insinuating I am a racist. I did not support any Nazi, racist, or the Good Ol' Boys Roundup. The last roundup attended by 341 of 2000 agents of ATF at the time (15 years ago). yes, that is an alarming number for a LE agency but it was not everyone in ATF (I never met an agent who attended one). I was the plantiff on 3 EEOC complaints during my tenure with the federal government so I know what discrimination is about. I also was the EEO officer in a brigade level command in the reserves. Your allegations are not very high road and based on...nothing.
Back on topic...the ATF agents I know did not attend any roundups (some of them are black) and had no interest in making a case of a single firearm across state line by otherwise non-prohibited persons as they were busy chasing real criminals (gangs, people in the drug business, firearms traffickers, etc). They didn't have time to troll on the internet. Yes, there are ATF agents lurking at guns shows but the lack of case productivity displays guns shows are not a thieves market of firearms trafficking.
I guess I've only hung out with the right crowd.
I spent over 30 years in law enforcement (in NE, SW, SE, and West Coast starting in the early 70s until about 5 years ago and have always used ATF and everyone I encountered used ATF.
ATF is preferred.
Thanx for the direction on this Carl. I can see they even refer to themelves as ATF on their website.
you'd like to insinuate (without forthrightly SAYING SO) that the Black BATF agents who sued and won a multi-million dollar settlement against the agency
If anyone is insinuating anything deanimator it is you insinuating I am a racist. I did not support any Nazi, racist, or the Good Ol' Boys Roundup. The last roundup attended by 341 of 2000 agents of ATF at the time (15 years ago). yes, that is an alarming number for a LE agency but it was not everyone in ATF (I never met an agent who attended one). I was the plantiff on 3 EEOC complaints during my tenure with the federal government so I know what discrimination is about. I also was the EEO officer in a brigade level command in the reserves. Your allegations are not very high road and based on...nothing.
Back on topic...the ATF agents I know did not attend any roundups (some of them are black) and had no interest in making a case of a single firearm across state line by otherwise non-prohibited persons as they were busy chasing real criminals (gangs, people in the drug business, firearms traffickers, etc). They didn't have time to troll on the internet. Yes, there are ATF agents lurking at guns shows but the lack of case productivity displays guns shows are not a thieves market of firearms trafficking.
I guess I've only hung out with the right crowd.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
That pretty much sums it up, Griz. Time wasted on little fish takes time and resources that's better spent on the real players.
crossrhodes
Member
Your all ways going to run into some bad decision that lack common sense from a large enforcement agency. It's called ODDs. Remember the guy with the L1A1 that had a broken firing pin, he was arrested for having an automatic firearm. That was a can of worms and in the end the charges were dropped.
Abide by the law and don't tempt fate when someone offers you a "to good, to be true" deal. With that, you'll do OK.
Abide by the law and don't tempt fate when someone offers you a "to good, to be true" deal. With that, you'll do OK.
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