Do you think the FBI ruined 10mm and nearly ruined 9mm?

[Elmer]

The failure in Miami had nothing to do with not providing proper equipment or ammunition. Long guns were available to at least some of the agents, who chose not to take them. And although the 9mm Silvertip was not a great round, it did not "fail".

The failure was in tactics.

 

[Cosmoline]

That's a good point. IIRC the kill shots were mostly made with revolvers loaded with .38 Special SWCHP

 

[Glock19Fan]

I agree, the Silvertip did not fail. The most famous penetrated through the suspects upper left arm (tricep?), entered his chest, and stopped less than an inch from his heart. It performed exactly like it should.

Saying the 9mm Silvertip failed in this case is like laying someone down, shooting them in the foot with a .223, and becuase it didnt make it to the heart, it failed.

 

[Richard.Howe]

Yes, the FBI nuked the 10mm -- but the 9mm nuked itself!

 

[jc2]

Neither the 9x19 or the Silvertip failed. What failed was the whole shallow-penetrating, rapid-expanding, "shock" philosophy of the RII, etc.

The best thing that came out of Miami was the serious study of wound ballistics and what makes a round effective. As a result, we have better, more effective ammunition all around--including the "FBI Lite" 10mm and 147-grain 9x19.

 

[BigG]

The Miami debacle was a textbook example of bureaucratic spin. According to best bureaucratic practices, the FBI leaders had to blame SOMETHING so they hit on blaming the CARTRIDGE (9mm), rather than the PERSON who ordered the felony stop without due consideration of the consequences and appropriate preparation. IMHO, the decision to felony stop at that time was similar to some of the guys we laugh at when they say "hold my beer and watch this..."

The 10mm resulted from the FBI coverup but it was maybe a quick and dirty solution. Once cooler heads prevailed, the 40 S&W appeared. I think it is a much more useful cartridge myself, although I have 2 10mm Colt autos and will not part with them. JMTC, YMMV, ETC.

 

[jc2]

It's been a long time, but I think there was some rationale for the felony stop--approaching a school or something. Anyway, something a little more substantial than "hold my beer and watch this..."

There's no doubt mistakes were made, and while 9x19/Silvertip has received all the press, there were a lot of other lessons learned (not near as many as from Newhall), but still a great deal was still learned. One thing about Monday morning quarterback is you weren't there and didn't experience the fog, the stress and the thousand and one little things that lead to a decision. Sometimes "do something" is better than "do nothing."

 

[JNewell]

...and sometimes things get FUBAR even with good people doing their best to do the right thing. There are no guarantees...and no magic bullets.

 

[BigG]

approaching a school or something

Oh - let me understand this - it was for the children, right?

 

[mjb]

If I had to shoot a guy about the size of a pro wrestler and he happened to be on pcp, I think the 10mm would work just fine. Corbon 135 to 165 gr shouldn't over penetrate too much.

 

[Elmer]

One thing about Monday morning quarterback is you weren't there and didn't experience the fog, the stress and the thousand and one little things that lead to a decision.

Normally I'm also against Monday Morning QB'ing. But in this case, there were so many mistakes made, a textbook could be written about it. I don't blame the individual agents. Most of the problems stemmed from their training, and the philosophy of the agency in general. Good things did come of the tragedy, and the FBI is definitely in better shape today.

 

[jc2]

Oh, there's no doubt mistakes were made. It's just too easy to be too harsh when it comes 20-20 hindsight (particularly if you weren't there).

Some of the more critical mistakes were individual--losing your eyeglasses, laying your weapon on the seat and losing it, etc.

There's little doubt training and institutional overconfidence contributed.

There seemed to be a certain lack of preparedness--I'm not sure anyone was prepared for the "rolling stakeout" to succeed and end in a felony stop and fight.

Inexperience (actual combat--not years on the job/training) played a role. What's the old infantry saw--if you survive the first two weeks on the line, you'll probably live to finish your tour?

Probably, the bottom line is nobody was prepared (and I'm pretty sure no one ever really is) to encounter a killing machine that couldn't be stopped like Platt turned out to be that morning.

Miami will always be a controversial topic, and usually generate more heat than light.

 

[Elmer]

Again.... I don't blame the individual agents. I blame an agency that sent poorly trained, white collar crime investigators, out after bad asses who had already killed. The FBI culture of not asking for help also contributed to the fiasco.

 

[ZekeLuvs1911]

The 10MM is a solution for the 9mm which was a replacement for the 45 ACP which is the perfect caliber in the first place. 45 is better than the 9mm or 10mm!!!

 

[4thHorseman]

The 10MM is a solution for the 9mm which was a replacement for the 45 ACP which is the perfect caliber in the first place. 45 is better than the 9mm or 10mm!!!

I know you are kidding, but I seriously concur. If the FBI had 10mm the incident would of drawn to a conclusion a lot sooner with less agents dead.
Praise all you want about the FABULOUS 9mm load, but the facts are the border patrol and most agencies have stopped using this FABULOUS 9mm round. Even with +P hollow points they failed the agencies miserably. Even an attempt going to +P+ hollow points was not adequate for those agencies.
The US Boarder Patrol is paramount in it's caliber choice for it's people because of the work they do.
Even the military has severe doubts on its capability as cited by numerous testing of replacement calibers for it's handgun rounds.

 

[jc2]

If the FBI had 10mm the incident would of drawn to a conclusion a lot sooner with less agents dead.

Maybe, maybe not. You just have to love wild, unsupported statements like this? Who knows? If Dove had been shooting a 10mm is recovery time may have slowed down enough he wouldn't have gotten shot off the shot he did, and maybe more agents would have been killed. It's kind of hard to second guess these things.

Actually, what LE has largely abandoned has been the lightweight, fast 115-grain +P+ loads. The 147-grain loads still soldier along (and perform very well) in many large LEAs (and the 124-grain +P loads are no slouches either). There are no magic calibres and no magic bullets.

 

[355sigfan]

.I don't like to use 9mm+p or +p+ loads in my guns since I want the guns to last a long time
END QUOTE

The problem with that logic is 40's are simply 9mm's with a 40 barrel shoved in them. They have higher slide velocity than any 9mm +p+ load, more parts battering ext. A 9mm feed a steady diet of +p+ ammo will still last longer than a average 40sw.
Pat

 

[Gabe]

Cosmoline wrote:

The FBI, as usual, learned all the wrong lessons. You know what REALLY did the damage in Miami? A MINI-14. So switching to more potent handguns made absolutely no sense. The rational response would be to start giving field agents some proper long guns. But since when was a federal agency rational?

Exactly. If that shooting happened today we would all be wondering why the heck did they not bring M4s. European cops don't seem to compain about their 9mm because they bring MP5s to these situations.

Classical American mentality to think the Miami fiasco as a pistol caliber problem.

 

[355sigfan]

An MP5 is just a big handgun that fires fast. No thanks. Give me an M4.
Pat