Does a shorter barrel significantly hamper the effectiveness of the .45acp?

[DHart]

I don't have data at hand to provide, but my understanding is that 9mm and forty caliber lose a much smaller percentage of their velocity when fired from short barrels than .45acp does... they tend to perform pretty well from 3 to 3.5" barrels, whereas the bumble bee .45 really slows down at 3". I chronographed the 230 gr. GS at about 735 from my 3" Defender. Lighter weight .45acp bullets slow down at an even higher percentage, typically, than the heavier 230 gr. bullet does when fired from a 3" barrel.

 

[Borachon]

I chronographed the 230 gr. GS at about 735 from my 3" Defender.

I wonder what the penetration and expansion at those speeds would be?

That's close to what I expected though. Under those conditions, a .380 would probably achieve at least the same penetration, if not greater, considering that it is moving at 200-250fps faster than the 735fps .45.

I'm also curious to see how a .380 fired from a 5in barrel would compare penetration-wise to a .45. Pretty sure the .45 would win, but I question by just how much.

9mm and forty caliber lose a much smaller percentage of their velocity when fired from short barrels than .45acp does

I've never heard that, but it makes sense. The barrel in both of those calibers is narrower and I would assume that the powder, burning in a more confined space, would tend to exert more pressure on the bullet. If the powder amount was similar...which I'm sure it isn't. Also, the bullets of a .45 are usually 30-50grains bigger from a .40 and 80-100grains bigger than a 9mm. Lighter bullets ought not be effected as much as trying to throw that big ole .45 bullet.

 

[DHart]

According to the data (shown in my post above) provided by David DiFabio of AmmoLab, you should expect NO expansion from 230 gr. JHP bullets when fired from a 3" barrel. Penetration I don't have data for.

As mentioned above, if you're serious about firing .45 acp from a 3" barrel (from any brand or type of pistol) you should probably be using CorBon PowerBall, CorBon DXP, or Barnes Hex bullet... these were the only .45acp ammo types, according to DiFabio, which performed well from such a short (3") barrel. If you must have a weapon with such a short barrel, you may be better served in terms of terminal ballistics and capacity by choosing a pistol chambered in either forty caliber or 9mm.

 

[StrikeEagle]

But what about...

This thread got me thinking about my old Colt Double Eagle Officers' Model. It's not a 3... it's a 3.5.

Is this splitting hairs, or does something useful go on in that extra half-inch of barrel length? You reckon I'd be just as well served by ball ammo in this piece?

StrikeEagle

 

[orionengnr]

wow, this has been food for thought

I read somewhere (as a rule of thumb) 230 for 5", 200 for 4 1/4", and 165/185for 3-3 1/2". Seems as if this thread bears this out, with more emphasis on the CorBon PowRball 165. Also recall reading that the "Personal Defense" rounds were "reduced recoil" (read lower power) so the lack of velocity comes as no surprise there. BTW, they are not outrageously expensive (bought some 9mm and some 45 from GB.com, seller meputtin) provided you don't use them as full time target loads.

At the risk of overstating the obvious, those pics tell me:
a) That I really don't want to be shot with anything.
b) That the road to an ND is paved by complacency, and it only takes a second to join that club.

Guess now I have to go out and buy a Commander size (and maybe a full size as well)...gee, thanks, guys

 

[Pistol Toter]

Not to hi-jack this thread, but this has had me puzzled for some time. I have a Glock 21 which would be considered a full size Glock and as we all know is a .45 ACP. The Glock information lists this as a 4.6" barrel, but if you remove the barrel and measure it the 4.6" is from the muzzle to the rear of the feed ramp. Now to my way of thinking that is NOT a 4.6" barrel. Now if you drop a 185gr Gold Sabre in the breech and measure from muzzle back to the bullet you get that 3.5" +/-. The question here is that a 3.5" barrel or the 4.6" as advertize by GLOCK. If it is the abbreviated length then GLOCK owners are not getting the performance that we are expecting. Again, this not meant to derail this fine discussion but if barrel length / velocity / projectile weight in relation to energy and performance is the basis for the orginal question with regards to manufactures; then this point becomes germaine. Gentleman, what say ye in this point.. This just food for thought. Regards Pistol Toter

 

[DHart]

Pistol Toter... wow... sounds like Glock has redefined barrel length to their own deceptive advantage.

Barrel length is *generally* considered the distance from the breechface to the muzzle. And because cartridge length is part of barrel measurement, then a 3" barrel in a .45acp is only giving the bullet a little over 1 3/4" of travel before the energy is dispersed in all directions. That's not much opportunity to build velocity. Micro compact pistols (especially in .45acp) may be a little more convenient to conceal, but there really ain't much barrel there to help a .45 caliber bullet do it's job for you. In my view such guns are a severe compromise... too much so for my liking.

In the case of your Glock, I'd consider your barrel to be a 3.5" barrel, not a 4.6" barrel.

 

[George S.]

In the list of bullets that apparently don't expand reliably when fired from 3" barrels, the Remington Golden Saber 230 gr is not shown. Is this an omission, or was the round not tested? Or is it one that does work?

If one thinks of using a short-barreled .45 in a defensive situation where the distance involved may be relatively short, say 5 to 15 feet, does a 230gr round slow that much over that distance to where expansion may be an issue? I can understand 25 yards or so where velocity drops off, but if one assumes 735fps at the muzzle with a 3" barrel, just how much speed is lost at 5 feet or even 10 feet?

 

[Ala Dan]

You mean a short barrel .45 ACP like this one~? This one is loaded
with Hornady's 200 grain JHP T.A.P. ammo, and has been placed in my
carry rotation.

 

[DHart]

George S. DiFabio didn't report on testing 230 gr. Golden Saber. But I think considering that practically NO conventional JHP loads in 230 gr., 200 gr., and 180 gr. expanded when fired from a 3" barrel, my money is on the 230 gr. GS not expanding either. Again, from DiFabio's testing, it appears that very, very few .45 acp loads can be considered very effective when fired from a 3" barrel. Not that you couldn't kill with one, just that the 3" barrel is generally a severe compromise in terminal effectiveness with the .45 acp caliber. Look again at the list of loads which did not expand from a 3" barrel... look at all the 200 and 185 gr. even 185 gr. +P Golden Saber loads didn't expand. I would lump 230 gr. Golden Saber right in that group with all the rest.... not a great choice if you must choose a gun with a 3" barrel.

My velocity test at 735 fps was chronographed at about 16 feet from the muzzle of my 3" Defender. With such performance I wouldn't recommend this as a "great" carry load in a 3" micro pistol. BTW, I sold the Defender as I realized there are other small pistols which offer better reliability, better terminal ballistics with Gold Dot and Golden Saber bullets (my preferred bullet types), and higher capacity.

 

[M2 Carbine]

When dressed for it, I carry a Kimber Tactical Ultra (3 inch barrel).
The gun is as close to 100% reliable as any piece of machinery gets.
It will hold about a 5 inch group at 50 yards.



Nope, I don't feel like I give up a thing with the 3 inch 45.

After many of years of experimenting to find a reasonable, easy test to see if a bullet will expand, I have found that if a HP/SP bullet is going to expand it will do it when shot into a single gallon water jug.

The wind today was too high to set up the chronograph but to settle the question of whether a defense bullet will effectively expand when shot from a 3 inch barrel 45ACP here's a few common 45ACP loads.

Taurus Copper Bullet 185gr HP and two Speer Gold Dot 200gr +P JHP
(as far as perceived power, the Gold Dot has everything else beat)



Remington Golden Saber 185gr JSP
Winchester Silver Tip 185gr HP
Federal Hydro Shock 230gr JHP
(the Federal seems to have gotten tangled up in some plastic from the water jug, interfering with it's expansion)

 

[DHart]

Interesting results.... I wonder what penetration would be like. In any event, I certainly wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of any of those loads! For the most part, I do trust David DiFabio's data. He's got a lot of experience in the field of ballistics testing and a solid reputation. As with all such things, to each his own choices and preferences. Mine is for .45 acp barrels of 4", 4.25", and 5".

 

[hnm201]

dpx

http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Corbon 160 gr DPX.htm

 

[DHart]

Dominic... that's the load I would carry if I had to go with a 3" barrel. Only downside is that reliablity testing would be a fairly expensive process, but if the ammo proved to function perfectly in the chosen gun, it would no doubt be quite effective.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Interesting results.... I wonder what penetration would be like. In any event, I certainly wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of any of those loads! For the most part, I do trust David DiFabio's data. He's got a lot of experience in the field of ballistics testing and a solid reputation. As with all such things, to each his own choices and preferences. Mine is for .45 acp barrels of 4", 4.25", and 5".

I've got some more figures on the longer barrels but it is pretty much normal stuff with the predicted decrease in velocity for the short barrels.
I've got the longer barrel 45's but I like the short barrel the best.

No I don't dispute anyone's findings, especially if I don't have the means to duplicate the tests, but as best as I can I try to test for myself.

The only store bought round I have chronograph records of, from the 3 inch Kimber and Bond Arms Derringer, is the Aguila IQ. It does 1280 fps and breaks up into 3-4 pieces as it's supposed to do. It's been very damaging in my unscientific tests.

I'll get around to getting the figures on whatever defense rounds I've got handy.

What surprised me most today is the text book expansion of the slow moving Winchester Silver Tip. Last year in some penetration tests in Lexan, the Silver Tip wouldn't penetrate while three other 45 loads made it through.

I don't have any 45 Cor Bon although I use it in several other pistols.

 

[jeepmor]

short barrel 45 rounds

Being new to this hobby, and a hobby zealot in general. I have owned my taurus pt145 for about 3-4 months now and have been asking some of these questions myself as my education on this topic grows. I have purchased some hollowpoint rounds to get a feel on my pistol's reliability feeding different factory ammo loads. I have cycled roughly 500 rounds of Remington 230 ball ammo through my pistol already, and maybe 50 or so JHP rounds. Included are Federal 230s, Winchester 185 silvertips, and handloads employing 230 and 185 grain Hornady XTPs driven by Unique powder. Being I'm so cheap, I've predominantly put the handloads through my pistol, saving the others for bedside deployment should the need arise.

As for expansion, the JHP bullets I have dug out of my target backstops have ALL been expanded fully. These rounds were primarily my new handloads with 230 and 185 grain Hornady XTP bullets loaded with Unique powder. They have been dug out of wood shot from roughly 25 feet. I realize wood is not a soft target, but it's what I have to base my piece of this conversation upon.

I've loaded them from the minimum load to the highest load in the 230 grainers from the speer catalog that came with my reloading system. I have not done the milk jug blasting yet for it always seems to be my water jug for a night of camping that I just can't go without. But I will try it soon and try to find the distance at which the expansion stops and share.

As for me worrying about these not expanding when I need them, I don't. I feel they are plenty for SD and way better than my barky labrador mix should a real threat ensue in my home. At least she'll wake me up. It beats the "nothing" I had before, so that's enough for me at the moment. As I do more of my own testing, I will provide my learnings as many of you have graciously shared here. But for now, I'm not going to lose any sleep wondering if my short barrel 45 is "adequate." If an assailant that threatens me in my home does not feel convinced, he can have more...

However, seeing the pics of what can happen when complacency and guns get together, that truly leaves me disturbed and is the most valuable lesson I have taken away from this forum to date.

jeepmor

PS - thank you for all the input foks, I'm gonna learn a lot here. Hope to share some too.

 

[DHart]

jeepmor... you're right... this is not worth losing sleep over... but if you're preparing to defend your life with a pistol, there are a lot of factors to consider!

Chances are you'll never have to shoot anyone in defense of your life and a short barrel .45 is most certainly a lot more comforting to have on a scary night than some other defense choices you might have made!

Remember too that NO media testing, be it gelatin, denim covered gelatin, a water jug, a tree trunk, phone books, water soaked newsprint, whatever... is likely to be a good match for the unique circumstances you might encounter. Your bullets might give you great expansion but not penetrate near deeply enough to do you much good! Penetration WITH expansion is what you really want. And if you can only get one or the other, go with penetration!

In a dark situation you might face a tired, solitary 145 lb. weakling goof wearing nothing but a t-shirt, or you could face a 270 lb. beefed & buffed, stoned out, adrenalized bad guy wearing a heavy leather coat, a few layers of clothing and many inches of thick muscle and or fat... you might even have to deal with one or two of his closest friends as well... if he/they have guns and are holding them toward you, your bullets may well have to first go through a leather sleeve, then a wrist or arm, perhaps some arm bone, another leather sleeve layer on the back side of the arm, then a leather coat, followed by a few layers of clothing, and then many inches of muscle and/or fat before they even get near vitals. Just something to consider.

The bottom line is you really have no clue what or who you might have to shoot through or into. Therefore, penetration is king and if you can get good expansion without sacrificing penetration, so much the better... trouble is, you might have a mountain of material, muscle, and bone to penetrate or very little at all... and no single bullet design, weight, and velocity is ideal for them all. Keep in mind also that handgun ammo even at it's best is relatively poor in effecting near instant stopping power. If you have the choice, a shotgun loaded with 00Buck should be your first choice. Handgun should be your last choice and if you need a handgun, hope that you're packing as much punch as you can manage... because even that might not serve you well. If the best you can muster up is a short barrel pistol, make sure you've loaded it with the good, proven stuff... not worth sacrificing... these days it looks like the best fodder for a micro-shorty may well be a DPX bullet.

 

[M2 Carbine]

Chances are you'll never have to shoot anyone in defense of your life and a short barrel .45 is most certainly a lot more comforting to have on a scary night than some other defense choices you might have made!

Remember too that NO media testing, be it gelatin, denim covered gelatin, a water jug, a tree trunk, phone books, water soaked newsprint, whatever... is likely to be a good match for the unique circumstances you might encounter. Your bullets might give you great expansion but not penetrate near deeply enough to do you much good! Penetration WITH expansion is what you really want. And if you can only get one or the other, go with penetration!

True.
And after all the searching and testing for the magic 45 bullet, most of the time I'm walking around with just a Kel Tec 380 in my pocket.:banghead:

 

[Pistol Toter]

As a teenager I got the birdshot load that comes just before the buck shot. Being a kid I was looking for a moonshine still that I had been told was in the area and I tel you for a fact that, that smarts and I don't want any more of it. It doesn't really matter what you got calibre wise whether it's a .22, a .380 or .45 acp because it beats the tar out of a stick. If you can hit what your aiming at you stand a pretty good chance of stopping the attack, in most cases; of course there are exceptions. I have loaded my GLOCK 21 with 185 gr Gold Sabres and NOT the +p's because it appears according to FBI data that they EXPAND TO QUICKLY and THE PENETRATION IS NOT UP TO PAR. I have long had an argument with myself as to whether I should change to 230 gr Gold Sabre and about the time I convence myself, some other idea comes along and waft back the other way. To me you search for a large projectile, with sufficient velocity to develop the desired characteristics, being able to execute follow up if required employing a platform that can be readily carried in a concealed fashion. To me an uneducated Tennessee plow boy the 185 gives considerable more velocity it still is a .45 which should make for a decent defense round, 230's would be better if you could maintain enough velocity. Ther are definite trade offs which ever direction you go. The saving grace is that with my G21 is toten 13 in the magizine and one in the breech and can pretty well put them where I want them in rapid fashion and can fairly well conceal the dang thing.... if I can't CC the Glock then I back off to my 2 1/4" SP101 with the 125 gr .357 Gold Sabres. God forbid I ever have to use either one of them, cause I'm convinced there is no winner in that situation. IMHO you must find a weapon that you are confortable with and load it with whatever seems to function in all the desired manner and walk on. Run from a fight if you can, avoid placing yourself in potential danger if possible, and if you must... fight to win and fight to survive. I once turned a fellow around that had promised to whip my backside when I hit him in the head with a green apple flung form the end of a stick. Needless to say he had applesauce for an afternoon snack and one heck of a headache and no he didn't whip my butt. Ther is a old nugget in that story somewhere, a laugh if nothing else..... With the highest regards fellow THR's, Pistol Toter

 

[DHart]

Run from a fight if you can, avoid placing yourself in potential danger if possible, and if you must... fight to win and fight to survive

Sage advice. I'm sure the last thing any of us would want to have to do is engage someone in a gunfight.... God forbid!

 

[NineseveN]

http://www.glocktalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=466439

Glocktalk had a good thread on this a bit back, some interesting gel tests as well.

 

[M2 Carbine]

This is interesting.
I ran across this while searching for any comparison test between water and ballistic gelatin.


Gun-Tests.com
http://www.gun-tests.com/performance/sept97s&w40.html

"Testing bullet performance in water is controversial. Some ballistic engineers from major ammo companies believe results gained from water testing are invalid, and they recommend testing be done in 10-percent ballistic gelatin, which provides visible wound channels. However, many bullet and ammo makers also use water as a primary or secondary test medium. Penetration is relative, and while it will always be more in water than gelatin, if bullet to bullet results are compared, the point is moot. Also, any bullet that expands in water will expand in flesh. If a bullet doesn’t expand in water, it will not expand in tissue unless it hits bone."

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Size Doesn't Matter
American Handgunner, Nov, 2000 by Charles E. Petty
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic..._24/ai_65910633

"The test medium was to be water. Sure it would be great to do this with ballistic gelatin, but the cost is prohibitive. Water is a tough test medium, so if a bullet doesn't expand in water, it is highly unlikely to expand in gelatin or tissue.

The final decision involved how to measure the results. Penetration is not a particular concern. All this ammo was developed using the FBI criteria of 12" penetration-- which is a gracious plenty-- so even though we can't measure it in this test, we haven't lost much."

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Making the snub-nose roar!
American Rifleman, Nov 1995 by Hunnicutt, Robert W
http://www.findarticles.com/p/artic...511/ai_n8709989

"But what about penetration and expansion? For this, we set up a Fackler Box (February 1993, p. 22). For those who missed the original story, wound ballistics expert Martin Fackler invented this long wooden box stuffed with water-filled freezer bags as an easier-to-use alternative to ballistic gelatin. Bullets penetrate about twice as far in water as in gelatin, so a conversion factor of .56 is used to make results comparable."

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This is what I was hunting for.

"Bullets penetrate about twice as far in water as in gelatin, so a conversion factor of .56 is used to make results comparable."