.45GAP outperforms .45ACP

[cratz2]

It's always good to have options and the 45GAP is no different. If it puts a 45 caliber option to a few agencies that decided that the G21 grip was too large, then that's a good thing in my book.

On the other hand, I absolutely don't ever see the 45ACP going away. The 45ACP is so popular of a cartridge... think about it. Kimber, the largest maker of 1911s, almost built an entire business from that one single cartridge. The 1911 has to account for a very sizable percentage of total US 45ACP handgun sales and 1911 guys tend to not embrace change quickly... and I say that proudly. And in the 1911 platform, the 45GAP gets you NOTHING over the 45ACP.

So like I said, to build as small a gun as would be reasonable, the 45GAP has potential, but in general, I think the 45ACP will outsell 45GAP both in ammo sales and handgun sales for quite some time in the future.

 

[1911Tuner]

Yep

cratz...ya just said a mouthful. At this point, how successful the cartridge is will depend largely on what platforms are made available and how much the ammo costs at the retail level. The performance of the round itself won't mean much one way or another. There are too many out there that
are in the same class, ballistically speaking...and all will do about the same
job if they hit the target.

Cheers!

Tuner

 

[wally]

Much easier to come up w 10 shot .45 caliber pistol in GAP than ACP too.

When something comes on the market 10+1 in 45 GAP that is smaller than my Para Ordance P10 I'll start paying attension. Until then, 45 GAP, YAWN, I've no intrest in stroking Gaston's ego.

The only gun I've seen in 45 GAP was bigger than a Taurus Millenium PT145 which is also 10+1 and a tad bigger than the P10. The P10 is damn close to the size of my 9mm CZ RAMI and only slightly bigger than my Kahr P40, although its a good bit heavier that all of them.

Its the thickness in the grips that cause me to not carry my P10, not the length
of the grips which is the place the shorter but same width 45 GAP can help.

Like I said, a Kahr PM45 in 45 GAP would get my intrest but only if for some reason they couldn't make it in 45 ACP -- the Kahr's long trigger pull might benefit from the shorter OAL of the 45 GAP but now much different could it be compared to the PM40 if one were made in 45 GAP vs 45 ACP? The same as PM40 would suit me, no real need for the trigger to be closer to the heel of my hand than the PM40 already is.

--wally.

 

[Brian D.]

I've been skipping Mr. Metcalf's articles for some years now, FWIW...

 

[faustulus]

A cheverolet Corvette Z06 is quicker and faster than a Ferarri 360.
I would still rather have the 360.

 

[pauli]

does that answer vary depending on if you'll be using them to put holes in paper, or put holes in people?

perhaps a home defense sports car is *another* set of requirements...

(i know, i know. the best thing for home defense is a pick up. yeah, yeah...)

 

[Zundfolge]

The new .45GAP (Glock Automatic Pistol) cartridge is more powerful than the .45ACP -- when fired side by side in pistols of the exact same barrel length with same-weight and same style 185-, 200-, and 230-grain bullets, the shorter case .45GAP develops an overall average of 8% more velocity and 14% more energy than the longer case .45ACP cartridge across the board.

So what was that barrel length?

I have a theory that the .45GAP will outperform the .45ACP in short barrel pistols since the ACP burns a little slower but once you get to the longer barrels you'll see the ACP close the gap (no pun intended) and even surpass the GAP.

 

[fastbolt]

I had to go out and read the article after reading this thread ...

I seldom buy these magazines anymore ... not unless they offer some objective, factual information that I can't easily obtain elsewhere, or, have some articles about SA revolvers with nicely done photography ...

However, the margin of performance is not significant - we're talking 50-80 fps in velocity, or less sometimes.

You can get a variation on 8% between lots of the same ammo, or between individual rounds in the same box of the same ammo.

Anyway, as I thumbed through the article, I was stuck by the same thoughts expressed by both Preacherman & BrokenArrow, quoted above ...

Also, I noticed a distinct lack of +P .45 ACP ammunition in the comparison.

Now, while I'm NOT a big advocate of +P .45 ACP ammunition, it would seem that it would be reasonable to compare some similarly higher pressure .45 ACP rounds against the 45GAP. Of course, the +P .45 ACP offers the "disadvantage" of only being offered in .45 ACP-size platforms ... and it may cancel any "velocity advantage" of the 45GAP. (Muzzle energy comparisons aren't something that really interests me anymore).

I haven't shot a 45GAP yet ... apparently nobody's been interested in buying one around here and bringing it to our range ... so I can't speak from any personal experience about how I may perceive the recoil controllability of the new round compared against either standard pressure or a +P .45 ACP. That MAY affect my thoughts on this new caliber/cartridge. I'll have to wait and see ...

It seems it remains to be seen whether this new round will appear to fill some "niche" in the handgun world of "defensive pistols".

Arguably "similar" performance compared to standard pressure .45 ACP, and generally less performance compared to +P .45 ACP ... but at pressures closer to +P than standard pressure .45 ACP.

The real popularity ... and success ... of this round may well turn out to be determined by the "advantages" of any "new" models or platforms in which it's offered. As someone already mentioned, it might attract a following if it were chambered in something actually small, like a Kahr ... or where the platform really didn't easily lend itself to the slightly longer .45 ACP round.

Will this new round revolutionize the very concept of the .45 ACP? Will it cause the .45 ACP to become relegated to the same niche occupied by the 10mm?

Dunno ... anything's possible ...

But there's just SO many folks that CAN handle a full size .45 ACP pistol, and so many quality .45 ACP pistols to choose from ...

If this new round didn't have "Glock" in its name, would we even be having these discussions? Would everyone be waxing enthusiastic if AMT had been involved in releasing this new round? Iver Johnson? Harrington & Richardson? Astra?

Can it really stand upon its own merits? Without any glaringly obvious, overwhelming superiority exhibited by the 45GAP ... which didn't appear "proven" by the article ... I'd have to see some overwhelming advantage offered by the platform itelf, before I'd be interested in considering it. Is there such a large group of folks out there who fall into that hoped-for-demographic of absolutely NOT being able to hold a G21 in their hands, but CAN easily accomodate a G37, with it's only slightly different sized grip frame? If there is ... there you go ... the caliber will offer a distinct advantage which will ensure its market success.

We'll see, I suppose ...

 

[Zundfolge]

If this new round didn't have "Glock" in its name, would we even be having these discussions?

Actually I think people are harder on this cartridge because of Gaston slaping his name on it.

 

[fastbolt]

Actually I think people are harder on this cartridge because of Gaston slaping his name on it.

No doubt.

Astute and accurate observation ...

But, you've got to admit that his name will very reasonably add some "driving force", or impetus, to this marketing effort ... which is undoubtedly what he's counting on ...

 

[pauli]

would anybody other than glock have *bothered* to make this round?

 

[Zundfolge]

I think so.

In many parts of the world it is against the law for civilians to own firearms in the same calibers that the police and military use, therefore 9x19 and .45acp are illegal.

I still think those markets where part of the reason for the development of this cartridge (remember, Glock makes a .380 they sell in those parts of the world).

 

[gunfan]

GAP .45

 

[gunfan]

GAP .45

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!

Scott

 

[Redhat]

Maybe on paper, but to convince me it's gonna have to establish a real world track record...good luck beating the established combat record of the 45 ACP!!! Talk to us in about 80 years!

 

[racenutz]

Maybe on paper, but to convince me it's gonna have to establish a real world track record...good luck beating the established combat record of the 45 ACP!!! Talk to us in about 80 years!

Umm...it's the same bullet going the same velocity. Either cartridge will have EXACTLY the same effect:banghead:

 

[Quick Draw McGraw]

I've gotta lean toward the side that believes that the .45ACP isn't going anywhere. Good points have been made concerning the platforms already available and the use of standard pressure .45ACP ammunition instead of +P.

I don't think that the .45GAP really offers much more (if anything more) than .45ACP as far as performance goes. BUT, like others have mentioned, if Springfield and/or Kahr can make a .45GAP gun that is controllable, they might be on to something, there.

In accordance with the "shoot the bigges/most powerful round that you can be confident with" idea, a .45GAP might fit the bill for some who don't want to (or simply aren't able to) carry around a .45ACP gun.

Oh, and 1911 Tuner, I think you may have hit on a candidate for perfect gun (ok not perfect, but I want one anyway) with the Beretta M84 sized/style pistol in .45GAP! (if you could shoot such a gun well... here's hoping) Maybe a Taurus PT945 could hold me over...

 

[MrAcheson]

I don't think that the .45GAP really offers much more (if anything more) than .45ACP as far as performance goes. BUT, like others have mentioned, if Springfield and/or Kahr can make a .45GAP gun that is controllable, they might be on to something, there.

I think the problem with .45GAP and its adoption is going to be physics. The initial concept was just taking the 9mm to .40 one more step to .45 without changing the frame size. It doesn't work. .40 is a lot for the smaller frames but GAP is worse. The frame on the 37 is definitely beefier than similar sized guns and the slide must be heavier than a 9mm/40 slide as well. So you have to completely reengineer for the .45GAP.

How many people are going to want to? Depends on the market size, but consider that supporting 357sig is basically just a barrel and spring change and how many folks still aren't doing that?

 

[Sean Smith]

.45 GAP won't replace .45 ACP in platforms already chambered for .45 ACP because .45 GAP would be LESS reliable in those platforms because its overall length is shorter than what those platforms were designed to feed reliably.

.45 GAP will allow gunmakers to make guns with shorter front-to-back grip dimensions than .45 ACP, since it is about the same OAL as 9x19. Put another way, they will be able to make guns in .45 GAP that will be noticeably smaller in the grip than they would be in .45 ACP, but for durability reasons those guns will still have to be bigger/heavier than a comparable design in 9x19.

Since it throws the exact same bullets at the exact same range of velocities as .45 ACP, the effectiveness of .45 GAP in relation to .45 ACP is not in doubt.

I think .45 GAP will allow some very neat small guns to be designed and made with a .45" projectile that couldn't be done with .45 ACP. But I don't think the Glock 37 is that gun.

 

[Edward429451]

Anybody got a picture of this red headed step child?

I'm imagining a belted 45 ACP to 'fix' the unsupported chamber, lol.

 

[Marshall]

GAP.....ACP.....BOTH PUT A HOLE IN YOU AND DO BOUT THE SAME DAMAGE.

I want to see the XD-45!

 

[boogalou]

From a reloaders point of view, I sure don't see any advantage to this caliber. Being a frugal type of guy, I can't see using this round when brass for 9mm, .40 auto, & .45 ACP are relatively inexpensive, and fulfill my ballistic needs with a variety of bullet types/weights. Just looks like one more choice for the person who "needs" that special handgun/caliber combination for that certain "scenario".

 

[BigG]

Hey, look at the bright side: This will give Tamara a reason (as if she needed one!) to get one of those 45 ACP revos. She can also shoot 45 short along with her ACPs using moonclips.

Apologies to Tam if she already has a 45 ACP revo thingie.

 

[Redhat]

Umm...it's the same bullet going the same velocity. Either cartridge will have EXACTLY the same effect

In the article I read they didn't mention any 230 grn rounds, just 185. Also what kind of pressure is it going to develope? I doubt it will be as easy recoiling as the 45 ACP. Sounds like a sized up .40 SW that's going to punish guns and shooters alike.

 

[buzz_knox]

Apologies to Tam if she already has a 45 ACP revo thingie.

I don't know about Tam having a thingie, but I'm sure she's got at least one .45 ACP revolver.