.45GAP outperforms .45ACP

[flatrock]

The GAP is a shorter cartridge. That means a shorter chamber, which means you can have a shorter longer barrel in the same sized gun, or a shorter gun with the same sized barrel.

That part sounds like a good thing to me. Modern powders don't require all the space that exists in the .45 ACP, so a shorter cartridge makes sense.

I find it strange that people are saying they won't have faith in it until it has a proven track record of stopping power. The GAP uses the same bullets. Onece the bullet leaves the barrel, the only real variable is velocity.

The higher velocities from GAP may very well be hype, or may be achieved by a .45 ACP +P round.

However, a bullet fired from a gun in GAP and one fired from an ACP will have the same performance at the same velocity. It sounds like the GAP can achieve the same velocity in a shorter gun. That's a nice advantage.

With that being said, I'm not sure I'd buy one for a while. It sounds like the GAP is a high pressure round, and I'd wait to make sure they engineered the gun well for those pressures before buying one.

 

[Redhat]

It's not just about firing the same bullet, other factors come into play. Shootability in the small package everyone is talking about (recil, recovery to target time to name a few), functional reliability of the weapon firing the thing, and the wear and tear that weapon has to soak up.

 

[Quick Draw McGraw]

I'm with flatrock...

could we agree that it will be the availability of solid gun platforms that make or break this caliber? {edited to add: as I reread my post I realize what a silly thing to say this was...of course we can't agree }

It may be that a smaller gun won't be able to handle the higher pressure, and if that's the case I don't think the caliber will make much of a dent into .45ACP territory. The only possibility would be for someone to make an outstanding hadngun built around the .45GAP, and it will probably have to someone else besides just Glock.

What if someone made a commander sized 1911-style gun that got the velocity of a full-sized gun? Maybe it can't be done, but if the higher pressure and shorter length allow .45GAP to reach higher velocities in shorter barrels, I figure you have to maximize those strengths in order for the caliber to really make an impact on the industry.

Once again, maybe it can't be done, but it makes for interesting discussion...

 

[Zundfolge]

I think the biggest problem with the .45GAP is the Curmudgeon Factor.


"Dammit Martha ... they done went and changed mah .45!! Damn whippersnappers!"

 

[Ktulu]

I really hope people don't start buying and using .45 GAP (Spit). I don't want to sort the GAP crap out of my .45 ACPs. Sooner or later ones gonna make into my press and mayhem will ensue.

 

[Zundfolge]

Should be pretty easy to sort since they use smaller primers then .45ACP

 

[BluesBear]

which means you can have a shorter longer barrel in the same sized gun, or a shorter gun with the same sized barrel.

Yeah that extra 3½mm is gonna make a HUGE difference.
BTW There is some good information on .45GAP here.

The .45GAP uses +P pressures to achieve .45ACP performance.
Therefore the .45ACP+P performance will exceed the .45GAP. (I am sure you start seeing .45GAP +P+ ammo. :banghead: )
Now if you read almost any thread on THR or anyother forum, or any article in any magazine, you will notice when the supject of +P pressures comes up people start saying that you'll experience increased wear.

And of course all those unsupported chamber problems will magically disappear with the .45GAP.


Maybe Gaston could convince The GAP to start putting magazine pockets in their jeans?

Edited to remove copywrited image.
Sorry Dean, I had no idea it was your image. I had gotten it from someone else.

 

[Quick Draw McGraw]

BluesBear, you're right that the 3.5mm difference in length doesn't make much of a difference, but I thought that .45GAP was less sensitive to barrel length as far as loss of velocity goes. I could very well be mistaken, though, please correct me if I'm wrong...

 

[bad_dad_brad]

Until Winchester makes white box .45 GAP it is hard to get interested in this cartridge. I think Glock has laid an egg on this idea.

 

[wally]

Back when I reloaded 9mm a lot, I've had a shorter 380ACP or 9mm Mak sneak thru. Doesn't foul up my progressive press, Usually I notice that the case looks over filled so it raises a red flag. Occasionaly I've not noticed and seated a bullet, the visible lube groove is a dead give away -- might not be so obvious with a jacketed bullet that lacks a canalure.

I'd strongly try not to shoot these as they'd likely be prone to set back in feeding since very little brass is holding the bullet.

Small primer pocket brass in a large primer progressive setup would stop you quick!

--wally.

 

[kentucky bucky]

Has anyone reading this ever seen a nationally distributed big name gun magazine ever say anything bad about a new product, gun or caliber. I haven't. It may be out there, but I haven't seen it. The only one I have seen that is objective and tells it like it is is Gun Report, and they don't get it right 100%. I think the GAP will be a footnote in less than 10 years. It has about 93 years of history and performance to overcome.

 

[happyguy]

Whatever advantage the GAP has in reducing grip size was sacrificed by glock refusing to use a conventional magazine. My DOUBLE STACK H&K USP .45f magazines would go about 3/4 of the way into my now departed SINGLE STACK G36.

Now if someone wants to manufacture a subcompact GAP using a conventional metal magazine they may be able to capitalize on its shorter length (are you listening Kahr?).

Regards,
Happyguy

 

[BluesBear]

Until Winchester makes white box .45 GAP...

Psssst... Brad, don't look now, but they already do. In both FMJ & JHP.
In fact Federal even loads it in their American Eagle brand.

 

[ThreadKiller]

I'm going to edge out on a limb a little ways here and predict the 45GAP will become known as "The Detonator." Given the fact that this round is loaded "hot" to begin with, some enterprising reloader will decide they know better and soup the GAP.

Heck, that's the only reason some people reload.

Tim

 

[buzz_knox]

Has anyone reading this ever seen a nationally distributed big name gun magazine ever say anything bad about a new product, gun or caliber. I haven't. It may be out there, but I haven't seen it.

I have. The precise language and magazines escapes me, but these are all ones I've read:

Ayoob article on the Americanized 210: nice gun but not worth nearly the price, given that an STI 9mm can do the same job for a fraction of the price

Ayoob again on the scandium .357s: these things just plain hurt

Ayoob on the first Kel-tec P11s: they may be a great idea when the bugs are worked out but they don't work right.

Denny (I think) in SWAT on the SW 1911: all right but what's the point in making one

The new SWAT article on the 37 (I regret not recalling the author's name) on the Glock 37: Glock and all the other mags sandbagged people by offering a G22 size .45, and then doing a bait and switch (my interpretation, not his) with the 37. It might be a nice caliber and item and works as advertised, but a whole lot of attention is being made to justify its existence.

 

[sm]

A few thoughts:

-More 45GAP guns that come along the more folks "might" leave the classic 1911's alone. Us selfish folks like a good price on a good product that has always worked and will continue to.

-They gonna do a 9GAP? Be a interesting change ...9GAP vs 45GAP...someone will muck that up...40GAP.

-Yes I am hesitant and don't do change very well in some areas of my life. But hey...change is good...especially if it allows me the chance to buy old good used platforms in proven calibers...there I go being selfish again...

 

[BrokenArrow]

If Dick Metcalf wanted to compare the GAP v ACP fairly, all he had to do was compare a G21 and a G37; about as fair as ya are gonna get?

From those two guns w the same bbl lengths, the GAP shoots the same bullets at about the same speed, but at higher pressures (23,000 psi). At the same pressures, comparing GAP to ACP +P (23,000 psi), the ACP shoots the same bullets faster at about the same pressure.

The 230 Ranger T GAP is slower from a G37 w 4.5 in bbl than the 230 +P Ranger T is from a G21 w 4.5 in bbl. So is the 200 Gold Dot GAP compared to the 200 +P GD ACP. Or a 185 GD GAP compared to a 185 +P Golden Saber. How did Dick miss those?

The idea was to shoehorn the GAP into a 9/40 platform, frame and slide; that did not work. Glock ended up putting a 45 size slide on a 9/40 platform. I bet if they knew that was where they were gonna end up, they woulda just given us a thinner gripped G21 w a thinner mag? Doubt very few could tell the difference between that and this G37? I think that would have been a better pistol too.

It's still .45 fat, and it still kicks like a 45, so there is a limit to how small any GAP guns can be. The only real difference between a GAP and ACP Kahr would be a 3.5mm shorter grip/mag front to back.

Since Kahr does not make a double stack 9/40 mag/frame, they are gonna have to come up w a new frame and mag to go with the new GAP slide and bbl. Might as well go all the way and do an ACP?

 

[Gewehr98]

Yup, it gets it's performance at a higher pressure level.

Small primer pocket brass in a large primer progressive setup would stop you quick!

As I looked at that picture, noting the small rifle primer pocket, I also looked at the size of the flash hole. They had to scale it down, too. Makes me wonder how small, and what it would do to a decapping pin.

No thanks, Gaston. Hope you didn't bet the whole Glock farm on that round.

 

[BluesBear]

Realities

Glock will sell tons of these guns world wide. Countries that can't get .45acp will love it.
In America there are enough people who have to own the latest/greatest design to make it profitable.

The American ammo companies have very little to lose. After all all they needed was a new case. They already were making the bullets. It's not like the 10mm/.40 where the bullet makers had to jump on board and produce new designs. Everybody already makes .45 bullets.

Any production line to load .45gap was probably converted from .45acp and can easily be converted back to .45acp so there's no big equipment expense.

And then there is the fact that it will work.
No matter what the pressure is, no matter what gun fires it, it's still just a variant of the tried and true .45acp. All of the real R&D had been done. Whether you like it or not the ,45 works.
No one will be able to tell the difference as to whether they were shot with a .45acp or a .45gap.

 

[Grunt]

Well, here's a copy of my letter to the editor of Shooting Times magazine about the .45 GAP tests.

After reading Dick Metcalf’s article on the .45 ACP vs. the .45 GAP in the May issue, I have believe this was not an “apples to apples†test.
First, the ammunition used in the .45 ACP was standard pressure loads. What about using the +P ammunition that is on the market today? In my opinion, comparing a high pressure .45 GAP round to a low pressure .45 ACP round without also testing the +P .45 ACP ammunition gives an unfair advantage to the .45 GAP.
Second, Glock uses polygonal rifling in their barrels where the Kart barrels are using conventional rifling yet both are cut to the same length. My USP-45 with it’s polygonal rifling has a barrel measuring 4.41 inches yet I have found velocity to be on par with my conventionally rifled 5 inch 1911 barrel leading me to believe that the polygonal rifling in the Glock makes the difference in velocity over the conventional rifling used in the 1911.
Sorry, but by ignoring these two very important points I believe this test was skewed. Perhaps a test using +P .45 ACP ammunition and .45 GAP ammunition through a .45 revolver would yield a more unbiased result.


Now to see if they'll actually print it.

 

[BluesBear]

Brilliant idea Grunt!
I salute you sir.

 

[buzz_knox]

First, the ammunition used in the .45 ACP was standard pressure loads. What about using the +P ammunition that is on the market today? In my opinion, comparing a high pressure .45 GAP round to a low pressure .45 ACP round without also testing the +P .45 ACP ammunition gives an unfair advantage to the .45 GAP.

While it would have been appropriate to use a Glock 21 as the comparator, the use of standard .45 ACP was wholly appropriate in this case. The .45 GAP loads, to the best of my recollection, were not hot loads, they were standard rounds. The fact that they have higher pressure is irrelevant because that is a design characteristic. Further, while many use .45 +P, it does not represent a standard loading.

 

[BrokenArrow]

Words have meaning?

And we can spin them to mean what we want?

Standard means what 'zactly?

It would be fair to compare the "std" shorter GAP bbl length to the "std" longer ACP bbl length then too, wouldn't it?

And +P is a recognized SAAMI "standard" for the ACP loaded to the limit.

Comparing a "std" GAP, which IS loaded to it's max, to a less than max ACP is like comparing a max CIP/NATO 9x19 at 39,200 psi to a SAAMI "std" 9x19 load at 35,000 psi? Not as fair as it could be?

The SAAMI designation for the GAP probably just reflects the decision to go for the max limit, as CIP does with it's 9x19 pressure limit. None of this +P crap.

Comparing a GAP at 23,000 psi and a ACP +P at 23,000 psi from the same bbl lengths w bbls of the same design/maker would be best. Like a G21 w ACP +P and a G37w GAP.

Bottom line is, from the same length bbls, a G37 v G21, I can shoot the same bullets faster from the G21/ACP at the same pressures.

 

[cratz2]

I haven't read the article and don't plan on it, but why they would use any platform other than the G21 to launch the 45ACP is beyond me. There can't be a fair explanation.

And as far as using standard pressure 45ACP rather +P 45ACP, that makes sense to me as they were seemingly comparing the cartridges, not the cartridges possibilities... but by omitting the readily available +P 45ACP loads, they offered a less complete and fair article the only result of which was to less fully prepare some of the magazines less knowledgable readers from making a fully informed decision.

And that my friends is called advertising. And that's all that magazine does.

This is all simple physics... same bullet, same barrel type and length, same pressures but with a larger case... the 45ACP wins with proper support. The 45GAP case looks stronger to me, but I've shot scads of +P 45ACPs and my hands are both still intact so like I've said before, I think the 45GAP has possibility, but it ain't in full size service pistols.

 

[Dean Speir]

With all due respect to Mr. Metcalf, while I don't recollect Broken Arrow's cite about his stating the the 10mm was the law enforcement round of the future, I do remember that attendant with its introduction at the 1991 SHOT Show, Metcalf stated that "the Colt's All-American Model 2000 makes the 1911-design obsolete."

But here's one which no one could have anticipated: Glock's Cooper Commemorative Model 37 .