Does Asperger's syndrome count as "Mental Illness"?

Status
Not open for further replies.
R

Randy in Arizona

Member
Joined
Sep 10, 2003
Messages
438
Location
East of the Democratic People's Republic of Tucson
Does Asperger's Syndrome count as "Mental Illness" as far as Concealed Carry is concerned?


For example:
Concealed Weapons Licensing Requirements

Arizona is a “shall issue” state, meaning that the Arizona Department of Public Safety (“DPS”) must issue a permit to carry a concealed weapon if the applicant meets certain qualifications. Pursuant to Ariz. Rev. Stat. § 13-3112(E), DPS shall issue a permit to an applicant who:

Is an Arizona resident or United States citizen;

Is age 21 or older;

Is not under indictment for and has not been convicted in any jurisdiction of a felony;

Does not suffer from mental illness and has not been adjudicated mentally incompetent or committed to a mental institution;

Is not unlawfully present in the United States; and

Satisfactorily completes a firearms safety training program approved by DPS under section 13-3112(O) (This provision does not apply to an active duty Arizona peace officer, standards and training board certified or federally credentialed peace officer, an active duty county detention officer who has already been weapons-certified by his employing agency, or any person who is honorably retired as a federal, state or local peace officer with a minimum of ten years of service, see section 13-3112(E)(6)).


Aspergers Syndrome
 
i would highly doubt it. Aspergers doesnt keep someone from making a proper shoot/ no shoot decision. I think mental illinesses in a legal sense are considered to be things that alter reality for you, like paranoia, severe bi polar, hearing voices, seeing things, etc.
 
Good question that I don't know the answer to. I do know a couple of folks with Aspergers that'd I'd trust with a firearm. I know LOTS of folks without Aspergers that I don't trust with a firearm.
 
As far as I've heard, the only legal criteria for judging mental illness is either having undergone voluntary/involuntary committment or having been absolved of responsibility for a crime based upon a finding of mental incapacitation. Aspergers should not fall into that category.

A quick Google found this (sorry for the source):

http://www.lcav.org/content/mlmentalhealthprint.asp

Mental Health Reporting
Eligibility Requirements
Federal law renders certain mentally ill persons ineligible to possess firearms. Under federal law, it is illegal for a person who "has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution" to possess a firearm. 118 U.S.C. § 922(g). ATF regulations (see 27 CFR 178.11) define "adjudicated as a mental defective" to mean:

(a) A determination by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority that a person, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence, or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease:

(1) Is a danger to himself or to others; or

(2) Lacks the mental capacity to contract or manage his own affairs.

(b) The term shall include:

(1) A finding of insanity by a court in a criminal case; and

(2) Those persons found incompetent to stand trial or found not guilty by reason of lack of mental responsibility pursuant to articles 50a and 72b of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 10 U.S.C. 850a, 876b.

ATF regulations (see 27 CFR 178.11) define "committed to a mental institution" to mean:

A formal commitment of a person to a mental institution by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority. The term includes a commitment to a mental institution involuntarily. The term includes a commitment for mental defectiveness or mental illness. It also includes commitments for other reasons, such as drug use. The term does not include a person in a mental institution for observation or a voluntary admission to a mental institution.

Accordingly, persons with mental disorders who have voluntarily committed themselves to mental institutions and have not been judged by a government authority to be dangers to themselves or others, insane, or lacking mental capacity are not prohibited by federal law from possessing firearms. This is true even if such mentally ill persons are believed to be dangers to themselves or others.

Many states have their own laws regarding who is eligible to possess a firearm, and some of those laws are more stringent than federal law when it comes to the mentally ill. For example, in Hawaii, the restrictions on possession of firearms by the mentally ill who have not been adjudicated as mental defectives extend beyond those persons who have been involuntarily committed to mental hospitals. Any person who has been diagnosed as having a significant behavioral, emotional, or mental disorder as defined by the most current diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Association is prohibited by Hawaii law from possessing a firearm. Haw. Rev. Stat. § 134-7(c)(3).

Similarly, in Illinois, it is illegal to sell or give any firearm to a person who has been a patient in a mental hospital within the past five years. 720 Ill. Comp. Stat. 5/24-3. In addition, a person in Illinois is not eligible to obtain a permit to possess a handgun if the person's mental condition "is of such a nature that it poses a clear and present danger to the applicant, any other person or persons or the community;" i.e. "a state of mind manifested violent, suicidal, threatening or assaultive behavior." 430 Ill Comp. Stat. 65/8.

California is another state that has laws concerning the mentally ill that are more stringent than federal law. In California, a person is barred, for a period of six months, from possessing a firearm if he or she communicates to a licensed psychotherapist a serious threat of physical violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or victims. The prohibition applies only if the psychotherapist notifies a local law enforcement agency of the threat by that person. Cal. Welf. & Inst. Code § 8100(b). Licensed psychotherapists are required to immediately report to a local law enforcement agency the identity of a person who has communicated to the therapist a serious threat of violence against a reasonably identifiable victim or victims. Cal. Welf. & Inst. Code § 8105(c).

In Connecticut, a state's attorney or two police officers may file complaints and affidavits under oath with any Superior Court, stating that they have probably cause to believe that a person poses a risk of imminent personal injury to himself, herself, or others and possesses firearm. Probable cause may be based, in part, on involuntary confinement to a mental hospital, but such involuntary confinement is not necessary for a finding of probable cause. If probable cause exists and there is no reasonable alternative available to prevent the person from causing imminent personal injury to himself or herself or others with the firearm, the judge may issue a warrant for seizure of the firearms. Conn. Gen. Stat. §29-38c.



Background Checks for the Mentally Ill

In accordance with the federal Brady Act, when a person acquires a firearm from a federally licensed firearms dealer, the dealer must conduct a background check before transferring the firearm. In some states, the dealer contacts the FBI and the FBI searches its databases to determine if the person is eligible to possess a firearm. In other states, the dealer is required to contact a designated authority in the state and have that authority conduct a background check by checking FBI databases as well as certain state databases. Although persons who have been adjudicated as mental defectives or committed to mental institutions are prohibited by federal law from possessing firearms, the current status of the FBI databases makes it difficult to prevent such a person from obtaining firearms if the person undergoes only an FBI background check. That is because a great deal of information about mentally ill people is not reported to the FBI and the FBI does not currently have access to mental health records that are maintained by the states.

Many Americans have been involuntarily committed to mental institutions and are barred by federal law from possessing firearms, but, as of April 2000, the FBI had received a total of only 41 records regarding mentally ill persons from all states. United States General Accounting Office, Gun Control: Options for Improving the National Instant Background Check System (2000). As a result of the FBI's lack of information about mentally ill persons, a FBI background check is unlikely to find that a person is ineligible to possess a firearm due to mental illness.

In cases where the states have chosen to perform background checks, the firearms dealer contacts the state point of contact (POC). The POC searches the FBI system as well as state databases. In some of these states, such as California, Connecticut, Illinois, and Oregon, the background check includes a search of state mental health records. For example, between 1996 and 1998, Illinois searched mental records and found that 3,699 persons who applied for a gun card were ineligible under state or federal law to possess firearms. Fox Butterfield, Hole in Gun Control Law Lets Mentally Ill Through, N.Y. Times, April 11, 2000, at A1. In addition, during that period, 5,585 persons who were hospitalized had their gun permits revoked because of their mental illnesses. Id. If the FBI had been conducting the background checks on these persons, however, the FBI probably would not been unable to determine that the persons were ineligible to possess firearms.
 
I'll second that. There are many normal people I'd NEVER trust with a firearm.
Either they're mechanical dunces or they're ethically challenged.

If you can't be a levelheaded person. You have no business owning a gun if you ask me.
 
I'm not a lawyer, but i am a counselor...

And isn't the wording "adjudicated mentally defective"? This would mean that you were involuntarily committed or legally insane. Technically if you want to go with "suffer from a mental illness" anyone could be made to fit into the square peg somehow. I'm just about certain (because i don't want to self-diagnose) that i have ADD w/o hyperactivity. The mind is always racing, i interrupt people, i skip from hobby to hobby on a whim, sometimes i... ooh something shiny... <runs>
 
Well, Aspergers is listed in the DSM IV
But I don't believe that being diagnosed as having Aspergers is the same as judged mentally incompetent by any stretch
 
Asperger's syndrome is NOT a "mental illness," but a behavioral diagnosis referred to as a "Persistant Developmental Delay." It comes under Axis II or III under mental health assessment in the DSM-IV-R.

It's considered to be on a spectrum of developmental disorders which includes autism.

Individuals with Asperger's are often misdiagnosed as having ADD/ADHD, but can generally be referred to as just plain "weird."

They are NOT mentally ill, de facto non compis mentis, or necessarily ever hospitalized especially if the case is MILD and/ or they got some occupational therapy early intervention in childhood.


There are MANY adults with asperger's who function quite well in any number of fields, including arts, sciences, medicine, politics, cryptoanalysis, police/detective work, and more.

As a physician w/ Dept. of Defense for several decades, most recently w/ a patient population comprised of many workers at NSA, I've met more than my share of people, military members both non-coms and officers who have never been clearly diagnosed with asperger's syndrome.
These folks frequently are fixed on one subject to the exclusion of any outside interests, a lot like the character played in "Rain Man," like knowing where every cul-de-sac in the country is on map and being able to name them. They make excellent code-breakers, having an attention span that is often second to none, but they are awkward as hell socially, breaking out in strange laughter and making inappropriate comments inconsistent with the main theme of whatever conversation it is they're interrupting. They're frequently pathologically shy when not overly gregarious.

An inside joke at NSA was how do you tell the introverts from the extroverts? The introverts walk around looking at their shoes. The extroverts walk around looking at YOUR shoes.

For a good dialogue on the subject link to:

http://www.paulding.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=26824

Hope this helps.

-Norm
Family Medicine,
socialist occupied Maryland
 
Asperger's is a mental "difference", not an illness.

Among many other fully functional people affected, Bill Gates is a dead obvious case, and a very advanced one at that...in board meetings he is sometimes filmed rocking back and forth in his seat in an obviously "autistic" fashion. When Asperger's is extreme enough the name changes to "Autism" and yes, that's an illness.

But in it's milder flavor of Asperger's, there are advantages in terms of the ability to concentrate on a single task and process. Computers draw Asperger's cases like flies to a turd :).

What Asperger's has NEVER been linked to is a tendency towards violence or a loss of emotional control. On the contrary, Asperger's cases are if anything far more "in control" as far as gun ownership and handling goes than many "normal" folk.
 
The wording in that CCW application is terrible. There are tons and tons of diagnoses in the DSM-IV, and a huge chink of them would not lead to pervasive loss of ability to manage affairs or be commited for your own health.

Hell, homosexuality was part of the DSM-III I believe, (since taken out) ADHD/ADD is in there now, as well as Pre-Menstral Syndrome ( I forget what they officially call it). Who knows what will be in the DSM-V.

I'd go with the federal definition... if you've never had to have the sharp things forcibly taken away from you, you are probably okay. :)
 
A late coworker of mine had undiagnosed Asperger's. I had pegged him as borderline autistic many years before I ever heard of Asperger's.

Very interesting fellow. He had two TVs which he watched simultaneously--nearly always news. He never married, had an amazing (bordering on abnormal) memory (but only in certain areas) and outside of work and the news (which were somewhat related) had apparently no other interests.

The guy was fantastic at his job--I sometimes wonder what would have happened to him had he not managed to get properly matched to a profession.

I wouldn't say he was mentally ill, but he was mentally different.

I would guess that mental illness (in the context of a CHL/CCW application) has to do exclusively with impaired judgement, inability to distinguish reality from non-reality, and inability to understand and deal with the responsibilities and intricacies of deadly force laws.
 
Well, I'm both an NFD Asperger (not-yet formally diagnosed) and a CPL licensee in WA. I've always argued that autism-spectrum conditions compared to "neurotypical" (as we refer to y'all) mental architecture's just a different OS, like comparing Windows to Linux or UNIX.

If it's considered "mental illness", I'd say it depends on the person, but I will throw out the fact that a local small-town police chief was trying to encourage me to pursue a career in law-enforcement...
 
150+ on the ol' IQ test...

I tend to get fixated on stuff, and set out to learn everything there is to know - or everything useful to know... The fun part is sometimes never really knowing where to quit... And getting frustrated at what one is unable to master... Benchrest is therefore a good choice for me...

I'm not at the point where I'll add up all the license plate numbers while walking through the parking lot...

Sometimes I dream of an endless plane, sort of an infinite pool table. With balls moving and interacting in infinite patterns. It's strangely comforting. Tasks or games that involve pattern consistency work well... large publication graphic design really gets me going - especially when I can set up automatic styles, etc., to make Pretty Darn Sure that stuff is consistent. I'm also a killer copy editor and photographer. Visual and literary. I suck at algebra-type math, but enjoyed geometry and statistics. Love music, but really haven't found an instrument other than the jukebox. Enjoyed broadcast/journalism law (got an A), but I don't think I could deal with law school. I tend to make vast intuitive leaps, which often prove right.
 
So let's make this a poll: How many on THR have or can be suspected to have AS?

"With the neurotypical falling into their time-honored bread-and-circuses routine, we may well be freedom's last. best hope..."

Not to brag, but my last IQ numbers came in in the 150s also. Bogie, if you haven't been formally diagnosed, I'd say you fit the profile and might wanna look into it. (I know AS very well, I was the college's Psych Dept.'s pet project for a couple years, and my Masters' thesis in WWII studies is about a theory I've developed that MacArthur was an extremely high-profile case of AS...)
 
While some of us may have some of the features, I wonder if anyone posting on this board has the first one listed in the DSM.

DSM-IV DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER

A.Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity
 
Aspergers is fun

I would not worry about Aspergers as a reason for not getting your CCW papers, or as a block on owning firearms.

I was diagnosed as full-blown "screwy" by the kids in the neighborhood before the shrinks, psychologists and social workers got hold of me and decided I probably should be labled Aspergers as opposed to anything else they could have come up with. At least I have something to point to whenever someone asks how I managed to (seemingly) leap from A directly to Z and score a perfect bullseye. Being neurologically messed up is a better explanation than telling them I'm smarter than they are, no?

JohnBT - I am #1 & #4:
DSM-IV DIAGNOSTIC CRITERIA FOR ASPERGER'S DISORDER

A.Qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:

(1) marked impairment in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body postures, and gestures to regulate social interaction
(2) failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
(3) a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
(4) lack of social or emotional reciprocity
Click to expand...

I am extremely introverted, and also have intermittent CRS, full-blown PTSD from both a traumatic childhood and Vietnam, oldtimers disease, and a serious chronic case of curmudgeonism. Yet I can act as the sweetest, most engaging person you will meet, and can sell snowcones to Eskimos as a way to warm up during winter. (Once I learned how to fake sincerity, life has been a breeze.:D )

If it makes you feel any better, just remember that half of the world's population is below average, and the other half is above average. I'm guessing it is very lonely in the middle.

stay safe.

skidmark

*edited to respond to JohnBT's query*
 
From what I have read about AS I would argue that it is not a mental illness. If you are emotionally stability then I would think you would be ok, but it could go either way. I was diagnosed with ADHD in elementary school which is a mental disorder and I feel I am very responsible with my firearms. Give it a shot and see what happens.
 
To a degree, I think, but it's not ones and zeroes/black and white...

Hey, I'm a geek. 20 years ago, I was president of a computer user group, and ran a computer bulletin board. I tend to type a great deal better than I talk...

The fun part right now is figuring out how I can use it, rather than be used by it...

Job hunting is going to be interesting... It's like "Hi, I'm a geek, and I don't interview well, but you won't believe the sorta stuff I can do."
 
AAAAAAAAND Bogie hits it out of the park! No, you don't have a choice about having any given condition. However, you ALWAYS have a choice whether you're gonna be a victim and cripple yourself through mindset, or whether you're gonna get on with life and slug through the best way you can find. I may crack jokes every so often about "Section 8 headcase" and "SUUUURE, pick on the autistic guy", but they're just that: JOKES, lame attempts at humor like my post "FEAR" in that last motivational-posters thread.

For Criterion A, I'm definitely #1 (through posture/gesture/expression, plus that almost nobody ever sees my eyes, between the extreme light-sensitivity and the fact that some people have found looking me in the eye a little unsettling), #2 (very strong reclusive streak--as a general rule, fraternizing with others is in time/place/scenario of my choosing only; trust is very difficult to gain from me), #3 (when forced into socialization, I'm very reserved, "cold fish" until I've built some understanding of the other person, which can take weeks or months), and #4 (I have this weird emotional disconnect--on the rare ocassion I feel something, I feel it very strongly, but a supermajority of the time, I'm running on a cxombination of instinct and cold, calculating logic--in an emergency scenario, fear may trigger creation of an ad-hoc op-plan, but the follow-through will be carefully calculated all the way through. You know how one guy'll be paralyzed by fear, while a second will be able to "shove it aside" and logic his way through the appropriate countermeasure? I'm more like Guy #2. And I can't be called a sociopath, because I'm not "any means needed to achieve my goals"--I have a set of hard, firmly-entrenched core principles and values, and I'll eat a bullet before I'll violate them.)

I'd say for most benchmarks, an Asperger CCW applicant of suitable worldview and education/training should only be worried in a state wher they actively SEEK ways to deny. AS in a "diagnosable mental condition"-benchmark state like IIRC New Yuck (darn Yankees), fuhgeddabouddit; otherwise, I'd say make friends with a local LEO and consult them for advice. But if you haven't been involuntarily committed, you should be good to go. If the U.S. Army, Navy, Marines and Air Force trust us to bear automatic weapons or A-bombs to defend our country, what makes us anything to fear on the home front?

NOTE: I'm an amateur psychologist, NOT a lawyer. Consult legal counsel for such advice. YMMV. And there are some Aspergers I wouldn't trust with a loaded piece of paper, let alone a firearm. PDD's are just like NT's, a mixed bag.

Also, it's my experience that NT's and Aspergers tend to have issues to to lack of understanding of the other in each. Misunderstanding breeds fear, which leads to conflict. Information leads to knowledge, which leads to understanding, which diminishes fear and can potentially lead to very beneficial relationships/business arrangements/etc. I wouldn't be able to put up this post if it weren't for a group of NTs working me through a major psychological overhaul, almost a total rebuild from the neck up that, due to divergence of paths in life, had to be left half-complete as of two years ago. Still looking for someone to finish the job... (I somehow doubt, even with a full implementation of the "modernized MacArthur persona", that it would be enough to complete the process.)
 
If you read the definitions broadly enough *EVERYONE* is mentally ill. They even have an illness for people who are too normal. I've hired and deposed enough psychs to know it's 90% BRAVO SIERRA. Unless you're clawing at the walls or hearing voices from the light bulbs, don't worry about it and don't waste your time with the shrinks. At best they'll waste your time with blather and at worst they'll get you hooked on extremely potent drugs even they really don't understand. Several of my best friends went down that road, including the smartest person I've ever known. He's completely hooked on meds now and still lives in his parent's basement. All because he was a depressed teen--well who wasn't?
 
Interesting thing is that I was generally geeky through high school - didn't really hang out with a group of friends, etc - read a lot (like, doesn't everyone read an entire encyclopaedia? I'd also read the texts during the first week of class, and irritate the heck outta the teachers), and I was _really_ into geology, fly tying (in Kentucky???), etc., etc...

When I went to college, I basically reinvented myself. Got out. Met people. It helped that my first roomie seemed to know half the people on campus. After about a year, I knew that half, and a good chunk of the rest.

One of those little conscious projects. Sometimes it seems sorta sociopathic - let's make Chuck appear "normal."

Ended up getting elected president of a dorm. An athletic dorm. Interesting.

Got outta college, went full-fledged computer geek hacker (36 on, 12 off, and dang, but that's an interesting switch - let's see what it does...) for a couple of years, and then started into the graphic design thing. Haven't decided what I want to do when I grow up. I'm _not_ a born businessman - I'm great with a lot of things, but I better have an accountant who lives and breathes accounts receivable.
 
How many on THR have or can be suspected to have AS?
Click to expand...
I think thats one of those things where you can selectively apply the traits of it to yourself if you think about it. Do I think I match? Well I've always sort of wondered, but at the same time I also doubt my non-professional diagnosis as being all that insightful.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

W
  • Locked
Vehicle Carry in Arizona
Replies
3
Views
391
Rexrider
R
E
  • Locked
CCW in AZ under a L1B type Visa
Replies
6
Views
652
sumpnz
S
B
  • Locked
Mental illness/concealed carry question--all states
2
Replies
47
Views
4K
Art Eatman
A
M
  • Locked
Age limit loophole?
Replies
8
Views
742
Sage of Seattle
S
K
  • Locked
Mental Illness and Guns
2
Replies
27
Views
1K
NineseveN
N
Back
Top