Does Asperger's syndrome count as "Mental Illness"?

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john

What I am saying - and I think american is also saying - is that clinical depression is not a disease, it's an injury.

Perhaps, for some, it's a chemical defect, but I am firmly convinced that most who are "depressed" are in fact psychologically damaged by self-enforced detachment from reality.
 
"Clinical depression" is a crock. It's your fundamentally stone age psyche's way of responding to the essentially unnatural psychological environment of modernity. Our age is boring, sterile, easy, gender confused, constricting, etc.

My experience has been that to keep depression away I simply need to add more physicality to my life. Walk more, screw more, fight more, shoot more, hunt more, play with your pets more, and so on.

Well, yes and no. Clinical depression is a neuropsychiatric condition in which serotonin and norepinephrine levels are out of whack. That's why SSRI's (selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors) generally work very well for people who are depressed.

Now, the fact that our age is boring, sterile, easy, gender confused, constricting, etc., probably interacts with this. It may pull out depressive symptoms, and as you've noted, doing things that counteract the environmental contributors to depression are the best first step to counteracting it.

Martin Luther, he of the Reformation and the 95 Theses on the Wittenberg Door, suffered from depression all his life. His remedy? "I go out and harness the horses" and he would plow the fields. Work, hard physical work, was an effective remedy. And that's what you were getting at, I think.

But the reason it works is that it helps regulate the serotonin and norepinephrine (and probably other neurotransmitters) in the brain.

So yes, clinical depression is real, a chemical imbalance, and refusing to treat it or admit its existence is like refusing to admit that diabetes is real. They're both a function of the body's chemistry being all screwed up.

Springmom (ABD in psychology, in case you wondered where all this came from :neener: )
 
My wife is going to DIE if she ever sees this - she's convinced that I'm the only wackjob in the world that gets the creeping willies at the squeeking sound that cottonballs make. This is too funny.

Hmm...I wonder if that's why the feel of wood-on-wood drawer slides sets my teeth on edge? There are similar things I'm just as bad about, and I've occasionally wondered why I can perform minor surgery on myself without anaesthetic and be steady as a rock through the pain, but dragging a popsicle stick across my teeth sets me shaking like a bowl of jelly.
 
ABD

Well, it was like this...

I was looking to work in the schools. That requires a year's internship (usually unpaid) plus a year or so to do the dissertation. Meanwhile, stopping ABD meant that I could go ahead and be licensed to work in the schools and the sum total difference in my salary was...$500 a year.

I thought about how many $500 years it would take to make up the amount of loan money I'd have to borrow to finish the dissertation and do the year's internship and went for employment.

Then I got sick and ended up eventually unable to work :uhoh:

I did, however, have a great time in grad school. I was really blessed to study under some very good teachers (UT-Austin, Department of Educational Psychology) and got to do some advanced practicum/internship work at Children's Hospital in Austin and in Pflugerville ISD that was priceless experience. And got to do some kids some good along the way ;)

Springmom

PS: just realized I never really weighed in on the original question. Legally it was covered, I think, by other posters. I will say that the vast majority of people with Asperger's are perfectly capable of carrying a weapon. The legal thing is, are you going to be a danger to other people...are you going to be getting your cup of coffee at the local 7-11 and suddenly see the doughnuts turn into one of Nightcrawler's story critters and start shooting at it. If you don't have a good grasp of reality, toting a gun around could be problematic....
 
My son was recently diagnosed with PDD-NOS (Pervasive Development Disorder - Not Otherwise Specified), which is part of the autism spectrum, but doesn't fit into a catagory like autism, Aspergers, or Rhet's. He also has an IQ of 145. The doctor told us after the diagnosis, that my son will be fine. He'll go to school and go to college and mostly likely do quite well. He may also grow out of PDD-NOS.

Having a child diagnosed with PDD-NOS made my wife and I do a lot of research on PDDs in general. As its been said, they are development issues and not mental illness. The best way I explain it to people is that my son is just wired differently from the rest of us. It doesn't make him deficient, but different.

I also realized how many of the symptoms of a PDD I had when I was younger (and some I still have today.) My symptoms were/are more toward Aspergers, and I turned out fine. I graduated from high school & college, and work in the IT industry, and have a great wife and a great son. One thing I have learned is that if you look hard enough, we all will have some sort of a PDD.

So, Asperger's is most definately not a mental illness and not a bar to owning or carrying weapons.

Warren
 
JohnKSa said:
I would guess that mental illness (in the context of a CHL/CCW application) has to do exclusively with impaired judgement, inability to distinguish reality from non-reality, and inability to understand and deal with the responsibilities and intricacies of deadly force laws.
Since this thread came up again, I should point out that I don't think that the person I was talking about in my earlier post fit this description in the least.

He was fully capable of learning and dealing with complex rules. In fact, he relied HEAVILY on a well-structured existence and was most likely to dislike someone for failing to live within the bounds of his own personal rule set than for anything like what you and I would call a personality conflict.

While his perception of reality was obviously not exactly the same as mine, it was not altered in a way that would make him any sort of a risk.
 
Great thread guys. My 14 year old son has AS, and it is quite "challenging" to say the least.

Keep fighting the good fight, and be strong. My thoughts are with you and yours.

I'm definitely highly ADD (not hyperactive though). The mind races, the channel keeps changing, but the body is slow to follow :D I learned to make it work for me long ago in college. I can multitask like nobody's business and digress from my digressions (get my work interrupted for other work) and dig myself out in record time.

Been working and living with autistic spectrum disordered people ranging from AS to NVLD (same side). They learn just fine and perform just fine, they just learn a bit differently is all. Don't ever sell these people short, most are very high functioning in all other areas but those few.
 
Great thread, my son has been diagnosed as Asperger's for the last two or three years. He's eleven and our small school is very supportive. He eats lunch by himself, due to the noise in the lunchroom. Recently he started doing PE by himself, we have a nice selection of Tai Bo tapes. He carries ear plugs but its the odd range of noises that bother him. Its individual to every Aspie I guess thou I never would have thought of cotton balls making a noise. Perfectly happy to be by himself but gets along great with me and my wife, very thoughtful and considerate. The things he likes, he knows everything about. He does get frustrated but would never hurt anyone. He's just an odd little guy who is a joy to be around. A keeper.
 
Great thread, my son has been diagnosed as Asperger's for the last two or three years. He's eleven and our small school is very supportive. He eats lunch by himself, due to the noise in the lunchroom. Recently he started doing PE by himself, we have a nice selection of Tai Bo tapes. He carries ear plugs but its the odd range of noises that bother him. Its individual to every Aspie I guess thou I never would have thought of cotton balls making a noise. Perfectly happy to be by himself but gets along great with me and my wife, very thoughtful and considerate. The things he likes, he knows everything about. He does get frustrated but would never hurt anyone. He's just an odd little guy who is a joy to be around. A keeper.
 
Whitby, support your kid, even when things seem weird... I mean, it's not everyone who will read their way from book A to book WXYZ of an encyclopedia... And remember most of it... Or at least the portions that were interesting at the moment... Help him harness the gift.
 
Hans Asperger, who in 1944 published a paper which described a pattern of behaviors in several young boys who had normal intelligence and language development, but who also exhibited autistic-like behaviors and marked deficiencies in social and communication skills.

Individuals with AS can exhibit a variety of characteristics and the disorder can range from mild to severe. Persons with AS show marked deficiencies in social skills, have difficulties with transitions or changes and prefer sameness. They often have obsessive routines and may be preoccupied with a particular subject of interest. They have a great deal of difficulty reading nonverbal cues (body language) and very often the individual with AS has difficulty determining proper body space. Often overly sensitive to sounds, tastes, smells, and sights, the person with AS may prefer soft clothing, certain foods, and be bothered by sounds or lights no one else seems to hear or see. It's important to remember that the person with AS perceives the world very differently. Therefore, many behaviors that seem odd or unusual are due to those neurological differences and not the result of intentional rudeness or bad behavior.

i have experiances with some types of these conditions, my 9 year old has Dyspraxia, right about in the middle of the spectrum. its been quite a challange at time as im sure others have in relating to their loved ones.

i think maybe someone that has a mild enough case of these issues may be ok. however, what good would CCW be if the person is unable to read body lanuage of someone that is looking to do harm to someone? most of us are tuned in to our surroundings and can usually pick someone out of a crowd that is suspicious. if the BG makes his move and the "special individual" gets caught flat footed so to speak, one of two things may happen. One, he may get a late draw of the weapon and be a target instantly by reaching for his gun, or two, he could get caught flat footed, be searched and have his gun taken away.

also , with the inability to understand the proper mannerisms and social rules that govern society, they may not know when they are pissing someone off and may not understand that there may even be a problem that they may have caused due to innaprpriate behavior.

these problems that were mentioned in the above quote lead to the knowledge that people suffering from certain conditions such as Autism, Aspergers, dyspraxia will not mature socially and emotionally parallel to their peers. my son can read very well and is an excellent speller, but he has a great deal of difficulty understanding the thousands of little rules that society demands for a person to fit in. and if you were thinking it, my wife and i, grand parents, very good therapists, social worker, and special ed teachers in the school whom weve really come to know and trust have all worked with him to better understand those rules. it is almost impossible for him to remember and enact all these rules that we follow without even thinking. its very hard for him to remember most let alone everything on a daily basis, he would become mentally exhausted.

my son would have to have ALOT of improvement in his maturity before i would allow him to carry concealed. however i do beleive that he will be able to hunt when he is older. but CCW is a whole lot different level of responsibility than hunting. i would not forgive myself if he were to have a laps in judgement, timing or technique and accidentally kill an innocent person. I also could bear the thought of my son being locked up for an accident either.

i will let him carry other, no-leathal forms of self defense until or if he ever achieves the maturity and responsibility to handle carrying a concealed gun in public. sorry its so long, but this has also been a long term concern of mine. Thank you VEWRY much for bringing up this subject! -Eric
 
Borrowedtime, there is hope. What kids with Asperger's don't do is just naturally absorb the cues and the meaning, but it doesn't mean they can't be *taught*. They can learn to consciously do what most of us do unconsciously.

At nine...heck, even at nineteen...my middle son was someone I was worried would never be able to be on his own at all. Today he has a job, an apartment, a (live-in:rolleyes: ) girlfriend, and while he's not setting the world on fire with his achievements by anybody else's lights, he could very definitely manage to carry a firearm concealed and both he and people around him would be safe.

He is not interested in doing so at this point, but he's a delivery driver and he has certainly thought about it, I know.

Your son has a lot of learning to do, but he can learn the cues, he can learn to think through the appropriate responses. Asperger's is the highest functioning of all the pervasive developmental disorders, and with the right help they can do just fine. They may always be seen as a little "different" by some folks, but we're all a little different, even though we pretend we're not.

Springmom
 
"there is hope"

There certainly is. I'm primarily familiar with the high school and up age group, but over the past 30 years I've seen numerous individuals succeed at school and work. (Okay, okay, 30 years ago the diagnosticians probably called it minimal brain dysfunction, personality disorder or something else, but I digress.) I've worked for a state rehab agency since I finished grad school in 1973 and I'm still working directly with clients (or is it customers this year; or are we back to using consumers again?)

John
 
Autism, long ago, was once thought to be some form of juvenile schizophrenia.

As the brilliant Oliver Sacks pointed out, autism is totally opposite from any form of psychosis, in that it it is a behavioral disorder that manifests with a total absence of influence, or extra-ness. The austistic individual is typically resistant to actual influence from another individual.

There is no influential force of hallucination or delusion, such as exists with a serious psychosis.

Mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, bi-polar, and OCD are characterized by symptoms of some sort of excess of thought or cognizance-- influence. Mental retardation, on the other hand, is a loss of mental faculty.

Asperger's, or autism, is a behavioral disorder that is not characterized by either.
 
Borrowedtime, that's why good training is important for all of us, be we NT or ASD. I think I read somewhere a critique about somebody saying he'd decided to shoot someone else in an instantaneous self-defense situation. The critics (rightly so, I think) came right back at him and told him that nobody has time to make a rational decision (decide) in 1/2 of a second. Good firearm self-defense training should get one's reactions to the level of conditioned reflexes. It should also, and most importantly, ensure that the conditioned reflex is perfectly correct morally and ethically, and, one would hope, legally.
 
I found this through a forum on aspies for freedom. U all should check that out if U want to see how we are. They were talking about the cotton ball thing. (I personally like the little colored fuzzy craft balls). On the gun issue: I am in the Army Reserve. Now I have had at least one range sgt ask me if I was on crack, but that's because I hate not being able to see who's talking to me and I was in front of the tower that time. I've qualified every time I've gone to the range and if anyone is worried about me having a gun, it's very likely because they have done something to p*** me off and know that I can use a gun. (Actually the last SGT that p***** me off found out there really is a book titled "One-Hundred Uses for a Fire Extingusher" -- I wrote it; and updated it as he stumbbled back to his barrack to sober up.) One of the issues I've come to understand you all are concerned with is not so much being able to shoot (for someone having AS [I was diagnosed earlier this year]) but being able to make decisions about who to shoot and when. [If he moves, shoot him; if he doesn't move, shoot twice because he's probably hiding something.] Seriously though. I do have a very well defined sense of self-defense and understand why we have rules of engagement and rules of use of force. On the civilian side, I think a gun should be used on the street in only the very worst case scenario. Case in point: the month I left for AIT (job training with the Army -- I was split-op) four young people [3 in high school, two from my school and one used to live on my block] were gunned down with AR-15's at the one kid's house just blocks from my house. Every situation is different and I have studied the police (pro-jet accent) continuum of force training. But if I ever do decide to shoot someone, I have two gurantees for society: 1) The guy will not be answering any question (except through some occult ritual) and 2) I will not be losing any sleep over it. [Theory being I'll only shoot someone that presents a clear and present danger to another person or myself.] Now, I due regret any loss of life; however, they did not value their life either and I'm not crying over that. The good of the many outweigh the good of the few or one: I ended that guy's life to protect myself or others. If he wanted to kill me or someone with me, he's probably hurt others in the past and/or will in the future. Hopefully any situation I encounter, especially involving just another person, I can resolve through verbal means. (And I do know and practice some cool take-away moves for a handgun.)
My reasoning comes from two things. 1) I live down the street from the housing projects, so getting shot/having to shoot someone has been a concept I've thought about for most of my life & 2) my autistic sense of rules and order and how things should be. I have had to react to many more minor (compared to someone actually getting fatally shot) situations and can handle them adequately (my friends and I and even the bad guys are all still alive). I do believe that in a situation that justifies deadly force, I will react accoring to my values and training.
I don't know if that helped any of you all, but my range SGT feels better. :D

ON the issue of body language and being able to tell if someone intends to hurt me -- I don't think it's an issue. Bad guys are not usually subtle and I am very aware of my surroundings If I am p****** someone off, it is not usually unintentional and if they do want to get stupid and mess with me for such a matter- I got one thing to say: self defense laws.
 
Whitby, support your kid, even when things seem weird... I mean, it's not everyone who will read their way from book A to book WXYZ of an encyclopedia... And remember most of it... Or at least the portions that were interesting at the moment... Help him harness the gift.

Hi Bogie:

I support him 120%! He's my Little Buddy!

He's a lot like me when I was younger, and I remember what it was like, so I tend to understand him a little better than my wife. She things its strange that I can "know" what he's going to do before he does it - after all we're 'wired' the same way. My wife and I both support his interests and work at encouraging him and helping him focus his gift.

My wife and I don't think of him as a "special needs" child. He's got a unique and wonderful gift. When he's an adult, he's going to be more successful then his old mom & dad ever were!

Warren
 
Although sometimes its hard to distinguish, there is a difference between "psychological" and "neurological" conditions.

Since Aspergers Syndrome is bioneurological, not psychiatric, it should not affect rights of gun ownership nor CCW.
 
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