For one things, all things aren't equal. For another, even if you do assume that all things are equal, where the hole is has far more to do with anything practical than making it several hundreths of an inch larger in diameter could.
Does Caliber Even Matter? Allow Me To Ponder Out Loud.
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cslinger
Member
Pretty well spoken for a redneck. Could you possibly edit your post and throw in a "Hell yeah" or maybe a "Hey Y'all, watch this."
Thanks for the input.
Thanks to everybody else for the input as well.
Chris
Squidward
Member
My 2 cents
The way I read most posts, I repeatedly get the impression the authors are subconsiously thinking about taking one shot when scripting a reply. This may be one reason for the mention of a large handgun caliber as the preferred caliber.
As a self defense tool, I think what matters is training and repetative shot placements with a caliber that you can control under a variety of situations. I also think that firing until the threat has stopped is crucial.
The way I read most posts, I repeatedly get the impression the authors are subconsiously thinking about taking one shot when scripting a reply. This may be one reason for the mention of a large handgun caliber as the preferred caliber.
As a self defense tool, I think what matters is training and repetative shot placements with a caliber that you can control under a variety of situations. I also think that firing until the threat has stopped is crucial.
Biker said:
I'm not saying that ALL handgun calibers perform identically for practical purposes. I'm saying that within the service pistol class/commonly recommended self-defense caliber range the performance differences, as far as terminal ballistics go, are not practically significant.JohnKSa said:
Yes, if you go to the extreme ends of the caliber spectrum and compare them, you'll see big practical differences. But who cares about that? Are there really people here claiming that the .17Mach2 is as effective as the .500S&W? Do people really wonder if the .44Mag has more power than the .22LR? Not hardly!
These arguments/discussions are about comparing calibers whose performance characteristics (pick your favorite parameter) are only slightly different in practical terms and that's the framework that I intended my comments to be interpreted in. HOWEVER, lest there be doubt, I included the caveats in my earlier posts on this thread and tried to make it clear in my last post (with the comment about several hundredths of an inch) that I wasn't talking about comparing hugely different calibers.
kd7nqb
Member
Well seems like this one might be in the bag but I think shot placement matters. However caliber matters in 1 very important way, YOUR not ready for the recoil a large caliber will be far less useful. In CCW situations your carrying a light gun with a short nose so recoil matters.
heavier hollow point bullets tend to penetrate more deeply while still demonstrating good expansion. this is supported by both FBI (I think it was FBI - correct me if I'm wrong) testing of *clothed* gelatin performance as well as hunting folklore ("heavier bullets for bigger game"). and in general larger calibers allow one to shoot heavier bullets, which in theory should lead to greater penetration. so IMO the value of larger calibers is not the bigger hole but rather the potential for deeper penetration through clothing while still expanding significantly. but again we are still talking trends here, not absolutes.
Ryder
Member
Penetration is King
As a bullet's diameter goes up so does it's weight. Heavier bullet = more momentum. More momentum means it's harder to stop. Harder to stop means more penetration.
You can push a lighter bullet (smaller diameter) faster to equal the penetation of a heavier bullet but there are drawbacks. Larger flash. greater recoil, and quicker wear. Pistols are low velocity weapons. Best way to get adequate penetration is with a heavier bullet.
As a bullet's diameter goes up so does it's weight. Heavier bullet = more momentum. More momentum means it's harder to stop. Harder to stop means more penetration.
You can push a lighter bullet (smaller diameter) faster to equal the penetation of a heavier bullet but there are drawbacks. Larger flash. greater recoil, and quicker wear. Pistols are low velocity weapons. Best way to get adequate penetration is with a heavier bullet.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
I am by far not an authority on bullets but IMO, energy and mass are important. The most important part of self defense is stopping power. You want to stop the attack as fast as possible. A .357 Mag round will hit someone with over 580 ft/lbs of energy and usually stop them cold where as a .22, .25 or even a .32 will not have the same effect. When you hit someone with a 230 gr .45 cal. round in the shoulder chances are you are going to tear that shoulder apart and knock the bad guy to the ground.
IMO stopping power is very important and any way you can stop an attack is good. I feel larger bullets because of the energy transferred by their mass can stop an attack faster than small ones.
IMO stopping power is very important and any way you can stop an attack is good. I feel larger bullets because of the energy transferred by their mass can stop an attack faster than small ones.
Lupinus
Member
Actualy it typically looses weight as even premium bullets loose some mass when hitting things.
The surface mass increases, weight often decreases.
The short answer (IMHO):
Is that caliber matters, but if you're in range of say 9mm +P to .45 auto (.380 is maybe getting down to the marginal end--still can be effective, but outside of my parameters for this discussion), not all that much. While the 9's may be moving a little faster, the .45s are heavier, so total "whack factor" is similar (note:NOT IDENTICAL--but pretty similar). I'm simplifying things (alot), but you should get the idea.
What's narrowed the gap are the quality/testing of SD bullets, such that a "premium" hollowpoint will do a pretty good job whether its .35" or .45" in diameter (note that there's not a huge difference in diameter). And what sways me towards a smaller caliber (9mm) is that you can pack more rounds in the same space. In a real world shooting situation (knowing the adrenaline is pumping, etc.) I'd rather have 13 9mms than 7 .45s. Since there's NO guarantee of the magical "one shot stop", I prefer prenty of backup rounds!
Is that caliber matters, but if you're in range of say 9mm +P to .45 auto (.380 is maybe getting down to the marginal end--still can be effective, but outside of my parameters for this discussion), not all that much. While the 9's may be moving a little faster, the .45s are heavier, so total "whack factor" is similar (note:NOT IDENTICAL--but pretty similar). I'm simplifying things (alot), but you should get the idea.
What's narrowed the gap are the quality/testing of SD bullets, such that a "premium" hollowpoint will do a pretty good job whether its .35" or .45" in diameter (note that there's not a huge difference in diameter). And what sways me towards a smaller caliber (9mm) is that you can pack more rounds in the same space. In a real world shooting situation (knowing the adrenaline is pumping, etc.) I'd rather have 13 9mms than 7 .45s. Since there's NO guarantee of the magical "one shot stop", I prefer prenty of backup rounds!
You clearly missed my point in using a humorous reductio ad absurdum example to poke a little good natured fun at the reductio ad absurdum nature of the argument that the study of a terminal ballistics chart can reasonably lead one to conclude and argue that caliber doesn't matter.
Don't get me wrong. This thread is interesting and fun to ponder but it really has little to do with real world decisions.
WolfMansDad
Member
hunting experience
My hunting experience says no, caliber doesn't really matter. In fact, for me, smaller calibers tend to be more effective because I can shoot them better.
Pheasants have a reputation for being tough birds and hard to kill. Lots of people go after them with 12 gauge, #4 shot, magnums. A few months ago, I found myself going after them with ordinary, low-brass #7 1/2 shells in a 20 gauge. I found that if I put the pattern on the bird, it would die just as quick as if shot with a #4, 3-inch magnum.
On the other hand, the difference between a .22 solid slug and a hollow point can be huge. I've killed small game with both, and the hollow point is a LOT more effective than the solid bullet.
No experience with big game.
My hunting experience says no, caliber doesn't really matter. In fact, for me, smaller calibers tend to be more effective because I can shoot them better.
Pheasants have a reputation for being tough birds and hard to kill. Lots of people go after them with 12 gauge, #4 shot, magnums. A few months ago, I found myself going after them with ordinary, low-brass #7 1/2 shells in a 20 gauge. I found that if I put the pattern on the bird, it would die just as quick as if shot with a #4, 3-inch magnum.
On the other hand, the difference between a .22 solid slug and a hollow point can be huge. I've killed small game with both, and the hollow point is a LOT more effective than the solid bullet.
No experience with big game.
ArchAngelCD- Please go back and read my first reply to this thread regarding .45 stopping power. A hit to a man's shoulder absolutely will not tear it loose. It makes a nice clean hole through tissue and breaks the first bone it encounters and is usually stopped by the second.
This myth regarding the .45 is as old as the caliber but it's a myth. The bullet cannot hit harder than felt recoil (Newton's Third Law) and men shot with a .45 report it feels like a punch from a woman. Hardly devastating knock down power.
This myth regarding the .45 is as old as the caliber but it's a myth. The bullet cannot hit harder than felt recoil (Newton's Third Law) and men shot with a .45 report it feels like a punch from a woman. Hardly devastating knock down power.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
When I said it would tear the shoulder apart I didn't mean it would literally rip it loose from his body, only that it would mess him a real good. C'mon man, I know a round from a .45 cal won't tear someone’s are from their body!
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