Does Replacing Springs Really Bring Legal Issues in a Carry Gun?

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I'm not as concerned about legal issues as I am about reliability issues.

There is always a trade-off to lighter springs that is seldom mentioned, like slower lock time, less hammer velocity, etc.
 
RickD427 said:
When you get involved in a shooting incident, you’ll find yourself liable to at least four different courts (your state’s criminal court, state civil court, federal criminal court, and federal civil court). A private person’s likelihood of going to a federal court is less than for an LEO.
You might want to be a bit more generic in your exposition.

In Texas, a good shoot is - by law - not eligible for a civil trial.
 
Point well taken, I did make reference to "Castle Doctrine" states (like Texas) later in the posting. My frame of reference is California. Things are a little different (not necessarily for the better) out here.
 
RickD427

You're right, (in post #25) but we may the only two members of this forum that believe it. ;)

I have also never seen an official legal description of a hair trigger.

In a number of cases, it has been defined by expert witnesses as " a trigger pull weighing less then the manufacture's minimum specification."

If the case is based on the position that the firearm unintentionally discharged, and a court-recognized expert witness testifies that the trigger pull was modified to be less then factory spec. the defendant/respondent may have a serious problem becaues both the judge and jury may know little about firearms, and maybe care less beyond the idea that they don't like them. :uhoh:
 
Another thing to consider is the fact that how would they know? Are they really going to take your gun apart into pieces to find out?
 
Following a self-defense shooting, there's a fair chance that the shooter will be sued by the bad guy. A homicidal/suicidal armed robber took three gun store employees hostage here in the SF Bay Area about 10 years ago; one of the gun store employees shot the robber, who survived. The robber filed a civil suit against the gun store and the employee claiming that he was shot negligently. The suit was settled with a minimal payment to the robber from the store's insurance carrier.

My point in mentioning that is not to inflame everyone with the idiocy of it but to point out that the legal theory underlying the alleged liability wasn't that the employee chose to commit an intentional tort - but that he was negligent, and that his negligence caused an injury to the plaintiff.

In that context, something like a trigger modification or home reloaded ammo would give the potential plaintiff more points to argue. They don't have to argue about whether or not the defender was in fear of his life, they can argue about whether or not his finger slipped, or whether or not the gun fired itself, or other ridiculous things.

The "how are they gonna catch me??" ideas go nowhere, legally speaking. If you "lose" or modify the gun after the shooting, you're giving the plaintiff a chance to argue that you did so to destroy otherwise admissible evidence. If a judge buys that idea, he can instruct the jury that they can (or even must) assume that the evidence that's not available would have been favorable to the plaintiff (bad guy) and unfavorable to the defendant (self-defense guy).

Civil suits include a process called "discovery", where each side must disclose essentially everything it knows about the underlying dispute to the other side. The precise details of this depend on the court you're in, but the underlying idea is the same. The other side can force you to testify, under oath, about how and where you bought the gun, the ammo, the holster, and how they were modified, if at all. They can force you to turn over any records you have that will show those things. Compliance with this is somewhat self-enforcing - but if you're caught fudging the evidence, it's likely to turn out very badly for you.

Remember the lesson of Watergate, Iran/Contra, and Monica Lewinsky - it's not the crime, it's the cover-up that gets you.

And yes, if you're potentially talking about a verdict or settlement in the hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars, someone will take the time to take your gun apart and figure out whether or not it was factory stock or modified or badly maintained or whatever. There's plenty of disagreement among "gun people" about what's safe and what's not safe - and all the plaintiff needs to do is find some gunsmith who doesn't like whatever it was that was done to your pistol, and ask him to testify that the mods made it possible that for some reason the shoot was the result of negligence, not an intentional act.

(But, having said that, I also want to say that I think these "bad guy sues defender" lawsuits are mostly urban legend; and that many states have reasonable "castle doctrine" or other rules that help defenders. I don't think people should organize their lives around the tiny possibility that they might be involved in a self-defense shooting, and that that shooting might lead to a significant civil suit. It's possible, yes. Buy if you're not an LEO and you really believe that there's a good chance you're going to need to shoot someone in self-defense, you really ought to worry about changing the rest of your life to reduce your risks, instead of worrying about parts in your carry gun.)
 
Well, several things about this - first this is not legal advice. Who knows what will happen in court. Now, with a DA/SA revolver, if you lighten the DA trigger pull to something somewhat light, the SA trigger pull may now be in the 2-3 lb range - very light. If the revolver is converted to DAO, this isn't a problem. I think you would probably run into light primer strikes on a DAO gun before getting the trigger too light to be unusable for self defense.

Now, as far as measuring the trigger pull, I don't know what some of these guys are saying - if you run into a DA that wants to make your life miserable, of course they will take the time to measure the trigger pull, open the revolver up and measure the spring weights, then subpoena an engineer from the manufacturer to testify what factory pull weight should be, and go from there. Don't for a second think that a crooked DA won't try to get a conviction on you because you thought it was a 'good shoot'. Measuring the revolver trigger pull and springs would take a normal smith about 5 minutes. Calling the manufacturer to find out what the standard trigger pull should be is 20 minutes. This applies to semi-autos too.

So, don't get fooled into thinking that the basic question is stupid - you just have to make up your mind on what's reasonable and what's not. Do some research on accidental shootings, standard pull weights for defensive guns, etc, and come to your own conclusions.
 
And do the research in your area.

Springs eventually drop a considerable amount of their tension. I think it's something like 50%, before they stabilize, that at least is true of the springs used in automatics, for slowing the slide.
Perhaps that explains why the J frames ship with such heavy DA trigger pulls to start? They figure the springs will loose 50% of their tension, and, the pull will be right around 10 pounds. Any lighter
and reliability becomes an issue?

One way to get a better trigger pull is to dry fire. Second is to store the gun with the trigger just about ready to fire:
DSC_0052360PDbullets8x6.jpg

Apparently when the springs are compressed, that causes them to loose their strength, and gives you a better trigger pull.

One must remember that the shooter is in Texas, and, Texas law makes civil suits illegal if the shooter is justified.

And yes, blakdawg, we live in a different country then Texas. It's Mexico now, isn't it?;)
 
Looked like brass on my screen last night - different monitor now so it looks more red. :)
 
As long as your modifications to the weapon are a) legal, and b) not inherently unsafe, such mods are highly unlikely to be an issue in court. That doesn't mean you won't have issues in court, but your modifications are not likely to be among them.

Now I suppose if you fit a bayonet on your pistol (they make one for automatics you know) that sort of silly, execessively tacticool modification may give someone a reason to call your sincerity into question...you know as the defender rather than the aggressor...but changing out springs? Forget about it.

And that business about storing your gun with the trigger almost pulled? That, I am sorry, is nonsense. This comes up almost weekly in Autoloaders and Rifle Country in the context of magazine springs. A spring, stationary, whether taught or relaxed, does not loosen up. Movement is what causes a spring to loosen up its tension.
 
I stand corrected. When you have nearly a 17 pound trigger on an 11 oz gun, you hope every little bit will help.

By the way, this is combined with dry firing a LOT, hence the snap caps.
 
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