Does the "old 357" have more punch than the acp 45 ?

[P95Carry]

Some of this centers round the ole favorite ''fast and light vs slow and heavy'' ... something we'll all debate until hell freezes!

Taking a figure quoted earler ...

I think a 125 grain .357 at 1300 and a 230 grain .45 at 800 both kill you dead if you make your hits.

The .357 here, even at this velocity (way lower than my homeloads!) ... we have energy of 469 ft lbs ... the .45 OTH comes out at 327 ft lbs. On energy, the .357 wins.

I always think that the velocity bonus with the .357 more than helps re expansion after penetration .... but then the ''solid whack'' of that .45 has for so long been proven to be effective.

The debate will never rest! .357 for me tho!

 

[Tom B]

I have never been much of a 45acp fan and even prefer the 9mm over it. For the life of me I don't understand what a large frame auto in 45acp can do that a 10mm in the same platform can't do much better. I have a friend who is a LEO with the Opelika AL PD. He told me two stories in regard to 45acp vs 357mag. At one time the OPD issue weapon was the S&W 45acp auto. My friend was involved in a shoot out where the bad guy was located inside a mobile home. My friend fired 5rds of 45acp from outside thru the trailer wall. After the shoot out he found that 3 of the 5rds had not even penetrated the wall. The second instance was when he shot at a fleeing felon from behind using a Ruger Sp-101 snub 357 that was his backup gun. He struck the felon in the right rear elbow and the gentleman fell like he had been struck full force with a baseball bat! Flukes? Maybe so but my vote (and his) go to the 357mag.

 

[Lone Star]

Does no one remember that when the .357 Magnum was introduced, S&W advertised that it had more power than "any .38. .44, or.45 caliber ever tested."?

Modern loads, with expanding bullets, are even better, although somewhat slower.

It is true that handloads change this, but S&W was referring to factory ammo.

And, no, I'm not old enough to have seen those ads when new. But I can read old books and magazines.

Lone Star

 

[Sarge111]

This is easy...

If you can define "punch". I've been following this stuff for 35 years, and have read practically everything that was written on the subject from 1900 forward. All the mathematical formulas are crap. Much of the "One-shot stop" data is crap. Muzzle energy is crap.

Either of the rounds you listed is enough gun if you place it well, and even then your opponent may stay on his feet for 5-10 seconds after a good torso hit that does not impact the spine. The "original .357" by the way, was a 158/SWC at about 1500, from a long-barreled N-frame Smith. I personally wouldn't call that an ideal defensive load, but I wouldn't feel naked with it either.

 

[Boats]

Since most SD shootings occur at night, I'll be using my .45ACP thank you. Right now I am researching which .357 magnum to buy as my next handgun, but I suffer no illusions that I will be making the flamethrowing wheelgun my primary. If I have to shoot at night, I'd very much prefer to see in dim light after my first shot. I also think that I still like the idea of nine chances rather than six or seven and a slower reload.

So the .45 is not a car killer, or a mobile home penetrator, and probably a really bad choice in standard loadings for killing bears or elk? Big deal. It was created to drop humans, and it does so with unmatched gusto. I am also aware that if I want to penetrate cars or mobile homes, a mag full of FMJ or EFMJ+p might be the ticket and game hunting should be a move up to .450SMC or .45 Super or whatever those trivia rounds are along with a more butch recoil spring.

Lower muzzle flash, higher controllability, lower downrange unintentional penetration on a miss, as reliable expansion and penetration on human targets, launched from some of the finest auto platforms ever devised. . . .what's not to like? Besides, I can get it in a better revolver in .45ACP than one can get .357Mag in a pistol.

 

[Sisco]

Did a little experimenting this afternoon. Nothing scientific mind you, no control groups or fancy equipment.
I had an old bar stool I was throwing out, it had a wooden seat made out of 2" thick pine.
Took said wooden seat to the range and shot it with my 6" 357 GP100, 158gr RNFP lead bullets and my Kimber 45, 230gr RNFP also.
Shot the target from about 15 yards (told ya, no fancy measurin' equipment used!). Did not recover any bullets, both the 357 & the 45 shot clean through.
Again, without any high tech equipment it was easy to tell which was which, the 45 made a much bigger hole.

Boats - I like your sig. line!

 

[JohnKSa]

I'm amazed that this could go on for two pages!

First of all, where the heck are all these anemic velocity numbers for the .357 coming from? A typical 125 grain factory loading achieves around 1450fps from a 4" vented test barrel. That should be fairly representative of what you can expect of a typical 4" revolver.

That's a 200+ foot pound advantage in energy over any standard pressure .45 loading.

Second, if you wish, by handloading it is generally possible to safely achieve similar velocities with 140 grain bullets in the .357.

That gives it nearly double the energy of a standard pressure .45ACP load.

I know the .45 has a strong following, but let's be real...

 

[355sigfan]

That's a 200+ foot pound advantage in energy over any standard pressure .45 loading.
END

Whos stuck with standard loads. Thats like saying you have a 357 but we will only count the energy figures from 38 fired in it. The 230 grain Ranger t at 980fps has 500 footpounds. The +p 185 grain stuff gets up around 550 foot pounds thats in the same are as the 357 mag. Besides as much as I like energy its not the only part of the story. Momentium and final expanded bullet diameter also matter.
PAT

 

[JohnKSa]

The first part of the post was comparing standard .357 loads with standard .45 loads.

If you're going to compare hot loads, look at the second part of the post. The .357 can safely reach the same velocity (1450fps) with 140 grain bullets which gets the energy numbers over 650 fpe.

I don't do a lot of work with the .45, but I think that's going to far exceed anything but the products of the most wild-eyed handloaders. That would correspond to a 185 grainer at 1260fps or a 230 grainer at 1130fps.

 

[355sigfan]

John both performs well in real life. The 357 mag has high energy with a good TSC and it penetrates well enough depending on the load. The 45 acp with the right loads has enough energy, good momentum, large expanded diameter and enough penetration. Both will work arguing over which is better is kind of silly. As is saying the 357 mag or the 45 acp outclasses each other in any significant way is also silly.

My favorite load does the following it has 500 foot-pounds, expand to .79 caliber penetrated 13.2 inches in bare gel. After heavy clothing it goes 15.2 inches and expands to .78 caliber. After windshield glass it expands to .60 caliber and goes 13.6 inches. Get the picture it’s the Ranger load and it does well across the board.
PAT

 

[Tamara]

Hmmm... I wonder where Georgia Arms Deerstoppers fit into all this? (158gr Gold Dot @ 1475fps, >500 ft/lbs @ 100 yards... )

 

[355sigfan]

I don't do a lot of work with the .45, but I think that's going to far exceed anything but the products of the most wild-eyed hand loaders. That would correspond to a 185 grainer at 1260fps or a 230 grainer at 1130fps.
END

The 45 acp can’t do that. But if you wanted those figures for hunting you could easily modify your gun to shoot 45 super and it will the speeds your mentioning. Personally I don’t view either the 45 acp or 357 mag as great hunting loads.
PAT

 

[JohnKSa]

Hmmm... I wonder where Georgia Arms Deerstoppers fit into all this? (158gr Gold Dot @ 1475fps, >500 ft/lbs @ 100 yards... )

You're not trying to confuse the issue with facts are you?

It's becoming clear that's not going to be an effective gambit.

Pat,

Come on--this started comparing two rounds, and now the discussion has digressed to modifying the firearms to allow more power? Like I said, I'm aware the .45 has a strong following, but let's be real...

 

[Sir Galahad]

Here's my litmus test:

I needed to fund a "had to have" gun purchase. I had to sell either my Springfield MilSpec 1911 .45ACP or my S&W M66 .357 w/6" barrel. Sold the 1911, still have the .357 and it just keeps getting better and better every 50 rounds of .357 that go through it.

Tamara, those Deerstoppers sound like a "must try"! How about those Federal CastCore 180gr. and Winchester 180gr. Partition Golds!

For me, the .357 is more versatile. I can carry it in the woods as anti-cougar medicine, as well as for two-legged predators. And I can load .38 Special +P for home defense. And with .38 Special McCartridges, it's cheap to plink with. I have a variety of options with this: .357 Magnum, .38 Special +P, .38 Special, .357 hunting loads like the CastCore and Partition Gold, "Cowboy Action" Loads, "snake shot" loads, .357 FMJ loads, .38 Special full wadcutters, the "FBI load" +P .38 Special LSWCHP, and the list goes on.

 

[355sigfan]

The 357 mag may be more versatile. I will give you that. But for self defence I would take a 1911 in 45 acp over the 357 mag in a wheelgun. But if the choice is between a 45 in a 1911 and a Glock 31 in 357 sig its a tougher call. But I at this point I would take the 1911 due to the launching platform.
PAT

 

[Rob96]

Then if you do some home loading you can load the 357 with some 180grainers 1422fps. for 808ft/lbs. or some 158 grainers at 1590 fps for 886 ft/lbs. or 146grainers at 1690 for 925 ft/lbs. The 357 is versatile and can be fun.

 

[Island Beretta]

I think the question asked whether the .357 carried more punch than a .45ACP. So how in blazes are people talking about autoloaders vs. revolvers and platform preferences etc

The .357 carries more punch than the .45ACP.-no questions asked, no doubt, no argument.. the disadvantage is the heavy muzzle flash and harsh recoil but hey, can't have it all!

 

[chaim]

Hmmm, I really love (or is it hate) these threads. Which caliber X or Y is better? My three favorites (by close margins) are .357mag, 9mm and .45acp. They all have advantages over the others. In modern well designed defensive ammo they are all quite effective (well, as much as a handgun can be).

The real question is which do you prefer?

The advantages of .357mag:
-versatility: cheap .38s for practice, good .38+P and light (well, light for mag loadings) .357 personal defense loads, strong hunting .357s, insanely strong fun loads and you can use any bullet design/shape without worry
-cheap practice with previously mentioned .38s
-extremely high power
-readily available ammo
-a very simple, easy to use and clean and usually very reliable and accurate revolver platform
Disadvantages:
-most .357mag loadings have too much penatration for liability concerns and too much muzzle blast and flash for indoor defensive use
-without a lot of training most people find quick reloads with speed loaders to be far slower and tougher than using mags in an auto (though w/ practice and training that can be addressed and reload speeds can be similar)

.45acp advantages:
-power
-many good platforms and more choice in platform (small autos, big autos, many different manuals of arms, some hi-cap platforms, and even revolvers)
-readily available ammo
-quick reloads with mags without excessive training time
-big slow moving bullet gives (generally) enough penatration for defense without overpenatration issues
-realitively inexpensive (not cheap but less than full strength .357 fodder)
Disadvantages:
-not as versatile, fewer ammo choices
-can't use as many bullet types reliably
-auto is historically not as reliable as a revolver (though w/ modern designs this may not be much of an issue, the difference today is generally more of a theoretical issue)
-thinner auto design may be more concealable for many people

Go with what you prefer and you'll be fine.

Oh, based on the intent of the thread, "which is more powerful?" Well, I guess that depends upon which handgun stopping power theory you subscribe to, but none seem to show a strong advantage to one or the other. In sheer energy produced the .357mag is clearly capable of more (more of a hunting/fun load/bragging rights issue though than an issue of stopping power in this case).

 

[Sir Galahad]

Well, 355sigfan, YOU might take the 1911 over the .357, but not everyone. The 1911 MilSpec I had was very innaccurate. Yes, yes, I know, I know---put in this bushing and that part and this part and it'll be accurate. But I'm a funny guy. I want a firearm to be accurate out of the box withut hundred-dollar tweeking to make it so. I figure for the money the firearm costs, it's not too much to ask. Well, my S&W is VERY accurate---right out of the box, with both .357 and .38 loads. With my Smith, I am assured of a hit where I want a hit. Not so with the .45 I had. (Key word: "had"; this was one of the criteria I used when deciding to sell the .45 to get something else.) So, in my case, the .357 was obviously the better weapon for defense. Plus it serves lots of other purposes as I noted earlier. The MilSpec I had was outshot by a Charter Arms "Off Duty" .38 snub with a 1" barrel, by the way. I know there are 1911s out there that come accurate out of the box. But for the price of one of those, I could have two S&W revolvers. The best weapon for defense is the one you are accurate with. For you, Pat, that might be the .45. But that yardstick doesn't measure every person, either. A .38 Special to the head or heart of an intruder beats a .45 to the thigh or shoulder.

 

[355sigfan]

most .357mag loadings have too much penatration for liability concerns and too much muzzle blast and flash for indoor defensive use
END

This is not quite true. Bullet design has more to do with overpenetration than velocity. The 357 mag with proper loads penetrates no more and usually less than a typical 230 grain jhp loading.

Sir Galahad You can get box stock 1911's that will hang with and outshoot most 357 mag revolvers. My Kimber Custom Series one is a stock gun except the wood grips. It shoots 2 inch groups at 25 yards. A friends Les Baer while admittedly is not exactly a production number will shoot 2 inch groups at 50 yards. My Kimber set me back about 650 as it came with nightsights. The typical Smith 686 retails for about $550 or so.

By all means if your more comfortable with a revolver thats what you should carry. But they do have some disadvantages, such as slow reload times, more difficult to tac load (reload a partially empty weapon) more difficult to fire rapidly. The last fact is due to the DA trigger pull being generally harder for most people to fire accurately and quickly vs a short reset singleaction pull. The additional recoil of a 357 mag in a service revolver compared to a typical 45 service auto also gives the 45 an edge. I know many people are unhappy with Sprinfields Mil Spec. Try a Kimber or one of the new colts before you totally give up on the 1911. ALso Glocks, Sigs, Berettas and HKs have good accuate pistol options. But again if your happy there may be no huge reason to change.
PAT

 

[JohnKSa]

I think the question asked whether the .357 carried more punch than a .45ACP. So how in blazes are people talking about autoloaders vs. revolvers and platform preferences etc

You noticed that too, huh...

You missed a 'couple' of the topics that have been brought up in an attempt to avoid answering the original question.

Is an autoloader better than a revolver?
Can a .45 firearm be modified to match .357 performance?
Which of the two does the poster prefer.
What is the poster's favorite cartridge.
Which cartridge is more versatile.
What type of handgun does the poster prefer.
Which is caliber is cheapest to shoot.
Which is more accurate.
Which is the best weapon for defense.
Bullet placement.
Ammo availability.
Overpenetration.
Muzzle flash.
Reload speed.
Training issues.
Firearm Reliability.
Firearm Pricing.
Firearm Capacity.
Firearm Concealability.
Controllability.
9mm.
10mm.
44mag.
.375 H&H.
Various brands of Firearms.
Practicing.

 

[Gewehr98]

Wow, Pat's back!



Hey, anybody get a good look at the new Remington .357 Magnum 165gr factory loading? 1290fps, 610 foot pounds, not too bad for a factory load where they usually err on the side of the liability lawyers. Sounds like just the ticket for the Scandium J-frames!

Truthfully, I want to try some in a 4" Model 19 and 6" L-frame, as well as my 6" Desert Eagle (In which I normally run 158gr JHP's over 1600fps). Maybe a Coonan owner can give us a report, too. Coonan357, you reading this thread?

 

[Admiral Thrawn]

I'll be sticking with .45ACP and 9x19mm in semi-autos thanks.

.357 Magnum is fun down at the range but I would never want to have to use it out of a wheelgun in a defensive situation. Same goes for any of the other Magnum rounds.

 

[Stevie-Ray]

No magnum rounds for me either in a defensive situation. I like the fact that my .45 will most likely not penetrate my walls if I (perish the thought!) miss the BG that has ventured into my domain. I get along with my neighbors and would like to keep it that way. This same idea transfers also to the street. Less problems with through and through shots and worrying about where the projectile is going after that. I'm not about to be shooting anybody that has taken refuge in a trailer or vehicle, as I'll probably use that time to get away. The .357 Magnum is definitely a more powerful round for the most part and is the superior hunting cartridge. But with that comes excess baggage in the form of over-penetration, also for the most part. I don't carry my 10mm for exactly the same reasons. Downloading is always an option, but why not just use a .38 if you go there? I don't own a .357, but I suppose frangible bullets would tame the over-penetration factor, making this even for me, a viable alternative. But hopefully not at increased recoil levels, also.